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Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by ljw1001 on Saturday May 20, 2017 @10:13AM (#14382444)
Frome wikipedia: "Global human population growth amounts to around 75 million annually, or 1.1% per year." 1.1% is exponential growth when the base is growing, just like 1.1% compound interest displays exponential growth. It is still growing exponentially, although the rate is declining.
Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by atemerev on Saturday May 20, 2017 @10:14AM (#14382450)
If the rate is declining, the growth is no longer exponential :)
Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by ljw1001 on Saturday May 20, 2017 @10:21AM (#14382477)
picture two exponential growth curves, one steeper than the other, over time the a trend moves from the steeper curve to the less steep curve. The "population" whatever it is, is still growing exponentially at the less steep curve.
Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by maxerickson on Saturday May 20, 2017 @10:26AM (#14382515)
The idea is that an exponential curve is no longer the correct model for forecasting growth past 2070.

Arguing about how to express that is sort of pointless.

Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by candiodari on Saturday May 20, 2017 @11:27AM (#14382797)
Population growth in non-human species is quite well documented and is in fact not exponential, although the early stages look exponential.

It is in fact a logistic sigmoid function. It is amazing, in that it is not what you'd expect : clearly the vast majority of species have the ability to correctly estimate the carrying capacity of a habitat and only overshoot by a little bit.

So the Malthusian argument is incorrect, probably, if humans are like other animals (and since population growth curves in many localities do indeed look like S-curves I would say that this ought to be the default claim). Human population size will by itself stop just shy of the carrying capacity of the planet. Which is exactly what you'd want to happen.

In all likelihood, this will happen without active measures from governments (which won't work anyway due to the global nature of the required policies), with or without popularizing contraceptives, with or without female labor participation, ... (not saying those aren't desirable, just that they aren't necessary)

The alternative requires an assumption that humans are hugely different from the species that we evolved from, and since this certainly isn't true in the biological sense, why would our population growth be so very different ? Humans are not the first large animal to "conquer the planet", and reach population numbers in the billions, with some fish well on the way to trillions even today, and we aren't the biggest species in terms of total biomass by a very long way (amongst non-plants that honour likely goes to ants, but even pathetic species of bacteria dwarf their numbers). Will we be the last one ? Perhaps, but it seems unlikely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistic_function#In_ecology:_...

Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by nostrademons on Saturday May 20, 2017 @05:46PM (#14384526)
It's not that species have the ability to correctly estimate the carrying capacity of the environment. It's that when the population of a species exceeds the carrying capacity of the environment, individuals will die and/or fail to reproduce, dropping the population of the next generation.

It's very likely that humans exhibit the same behavior, but on a micro-scale, this isn't very comforting. If a politician says "Well, the earth will be fine, but 10% of you are gonna die and another 30% won't be able to have children that survive to adulthood", there would be rioting on the streets ... which has a non-negligible chance of bringing about those numbers.

Nature will be just fine, but remember that the mechanisms by which nature self-adapts are the four horsemen of the apocalypse: pestilence, war, famine, and death.

Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by dualogy on Saturday May 20, 2017 @08:03PM (#14385056)
> So the Malthusian argument is incorrect, probably, if humans are like other animals

> The alternative requires an assumption that humans are hugely different from the species that we evolved from

Well we are, for proof look at the fact that we're even discussing it here when all the other species never did. Look, that all sounds very peachy if it weren't for the fact that our species alone has grown the brains and the self-justifications for consciously attempting to continously outwit "nature" (and be able to replicate way beyond what our ancestral habitats could carry) at every turn with agriculture and all the sciences =) granted, there's no point in or way of "going back" for all manner of reasons, but we needn't lose sight of certain basic facts here..

Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by ljw1001 on Saturday May 20, 2017 @09:44PM (#14385322)
I refer you to the 12,000-year human population growth chart on Our World In Data, in a post by Max Roser.

https://ourworldindata.org/world-population-growth/

Growth is clearly exponential. Your theories don't fit the data.

Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by candiodari on Sunday May 21, 2017 @04:03AM (#14386262)
I'm looking at that graph. I see a spike in the growth rate, after the spike it goes to zero. I'm not an expert (I have a masters in statistics actually) but that doesn't look very exponential to me.

Can you explain what I'm missing ?

Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by spiraldancing on Saturday May 20, 2017 @10:38AM (#14382557)
2% is exponential growth; 1% is still exponential growth. Decrease from 2% to 1% is a decrease in the rate of growth, which still remains exponential.
Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by atemerev on Saturday May 20, 2017 @10:52AM (#14382624)
(Sigh).

Look at the linear function. It experiences "decrease in the rate of growth" along the line.

If the exponent is not constant, we do not have "exponential growth" anymore — by definition.

Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by ljw1001 on Saturday May 20, 2017 @10:25AM (#14382503)
picture two exponential growth curves, one steeper than the other, over time the a trend moves from the steeper curve to the less steep curve. The "population" whatever it is, is still growing exponentially at the less steep curve.
Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by dragonwriter on Saturday May 20, 2017 @07:05PM (#14384843)
Well, if over time it is continuing shifting to match slower and slower exponential curves, its not actually exponential growth over the long-term.

A growth curve that is, in fact, logistic, would look like that.

Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by ljw1001 on Saturday May 20, 2017 @07:30PM (#14384931)
I never said that it would continue to decline indefinitely. I said it was exponential before, and it's still exponential, even though the rate has changed. In spite of the massive negative response here, that statement is perfectly true.
Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by dragonwriter on Saturday May 20, 2017 @09:25PM (#14385282)
> I never said that it would continue to decline indefinitely.

It's been continuously declining for half a century after peaking, the assumption that it's suddenly reached a bottom at the most recent measurement and returned to an exponential steady state is unwarranted.

Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by ljw1001 on Saturday May 20, 2017 @11:06AM (#14382701)
LOL. somebody downvoted this, but you know. Math.
Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by Rexxar on Saturday May 20, 2017 @12:30PM (#14383115)
People like to use percentage for everything. That doesn't mean that everything is exponential.
Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by ljw1001 on Saturday May 20, 2017 @03:16PM (#14383851)
No, but we are talking about a formula of the type where a growth rate G is a factor of a base population P, and P in Period n+1 = P(n) + G*P(n)

In this case G is the difference between the birth rate and the death rate for time period t. As long as a G is positive, you get exponential growth. Every time. This is how compound interest works. The fact that your balance next year is based on your starting balance + the balance multiplied by a positive growth rate ALWAYS leads to exponential growth in the balance.

Here's a video that explains it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB4KVSjgi24

Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by atemerev on Saturday May 20, 2017 @05:55PM (#14384569)
> In this case G is the difference between the birth rate and the death rate for time period t

OK then. Let the birth rate be 1 person per second and death rate 0 (nobody dies). Do you get exponential growth? No. This is still linear growth.

Your another mistake is that ax^b is exponential growth, and ax^c is also exponential growth (if b and c are constants), but these are different processes. If you get a single process with changing exponent, this is no longer exponential growth, it can be arbitrarily defined.

Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by ljw1001 on Saturday May 20, 2017 @07:01PM (#14384826)
Thank you. You finally made it clear exactly what you don't understand.

One person per second is linear.

.00001 person per year * current population is exponential, assuming only that the (fractional) person is added to the population factor so that the base is bigger next year.

If you don't understand that, you shouldn't be commenting on growth rates.

Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by joshuamorton on Saturday May 20, 2017 @09:18PM (#14385263)
Indeed. However you also made it clear what you don't understand. Consider 1 person per year being born.

If you assume the growth rate is exponential, then you will see that the first year, the growth rate is 100%, the second year the growth rate is 50%, the third year the growth rate is 33% and so on. At any point, you can fit an exponential to the graph tangential to the current point. It won't fit much, but you can still do it.

A decreasing exponential may be exponential, but it also very well may not be. But we'll need to look a few years into the future to be sure. That said, expert opinion seems to be that growth rate is at this point linear (or iow an exponential that decreases each year so as to appear linear) [0]

[0]: https://ourworldindata.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/update...

Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by dragonwriter on Saturday May 20, 2017 @09:27PM (#14385286)
> A decreasing exponential may be exponential

No, a "decreasing exponential" is not exponential. It might return to an exponential after the decreasing period, but during the period of decline, the growth is not exponential.

Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by joshuamorton on Sunday May 21, 2017 @12:11PM (#14387885)
Fair.
Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by nevdka on Saturday May 20, 2017 @10:08PM (#14385362)
The population growth rate isn't dependant on the base population. You can pretend it is by expressing it as a percentage, but that doesn't make it so.

Look at [0]. 2016 had a higher population than 2015, yet the growth was smaller. Not just a smaller percentage, but actually smaller by about half a million people. If growth was exponential, then the higher population would have a larger increase, but it doesn't, and so the growth isn't exponential.

[0]: http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/world-populati...

Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by ljw1001 on Sunday May 21, 2017 @09:10AM (#14387124)
Sigh. The growth _rate_ is not dependent on the population, but the actual numeric growth _amount_ is. It is the _population_ that is growing exponentially.

You are describing the shift from a steep exponential growth curve to a lower exponential growth curve that I mentioned earlier.

If you get 10% compounded interest on your money it grows exponentially at 10%.

If you get 9% compounded interest it grows exponentially at 9%.

And if you _were_ getting 10% and the bank changes the rate to 9% your money is now growing exponentially at 9% interest, assuming only that the interest is reinvested.

Re:Frighteningly Ambitious Startup Ideas (2012) by sobani on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @07:03AM (#14400274)
Assume my bank gives me a linear interest of $10 per year.

Then going from $100 to $110 that would be 10%.

Going from $110 to $120 would be ~9%.

Going from $120 to $130 would be ~8%.

In any year you could conclude my savings grow exponentially. 10%! 9%! whoohoo! But if you look over a longer time frame, it clearly isn't.

And as nevdka mentioned, the population growth is less than linear. If my bank gave me $10 of interest last year and $9 this year, and $8 the next, there is definitely no exponential growth.