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Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by djrogers on Friday May 19, 2017 @12:04PM (#14376966)
The real concern here is that the country that's furthest along in extracting the methane is also pretty low on the list of countries that take great care with environmental concerns. As the article points out, the biggest danger with this as a NG source is that a lot of methane can escape before you've extracted it, and the methane that escapes is a huge concern as a greenhouse gas.
Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by alphydan on Friday May 19, 2017 @12:52PM (#14377422)
> pretty low on the list of countries that take great care with environmental concerns

The truth is not as simple as the western media makes it out to be. Between the US and China there are more than 40 countries in CO2 emissions per capita. In other words, one of the least responsible countries is the US (If you took a province of China with 200 million inhabitants, it would be an extremely responsible country compared to a country of similar size. Per capita, it sits right next to Iceland at around 6 tonnes of CO2/person)[0]

China is also the number one investor in renewable energy (more than double what the US is investing). Per capita, they are similar players with the US ahead. [1]

So it all depends on how you slice your data. Objectively it's easy to say that China is one of the most responsible countries in terms of global warming. Now whether it's just a matter of poverty and whether their growth strategy involves "de-carbonizing" de economy ... it's hard to say.

However, taping the clathrates without capture sounds like sucide.

[0] http://cotap.org/per-capita-carbon-co2-emissions-by-country [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/top-renewable-energy-investme...

Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by dogma1138 on Friday May 19, 2017 @01:02PM (#14377514)
China is still a developing country, there are more people in China that do not have access to electricity or then entire population of many of those 40 or so countries between it and the US on that list.

China has an energy problem if it wants to continue to grow it needs to increase its energy production by a steep factor.

It has a growing working and middle class that wants refrigerators and air conditioners. It still has half a million households had are not connected to electricity and many many more that are not connected to other utilities such as sewage.

China is investing in every energy solution it can because it's in a desperate need of more juice.

Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by jvm on Friday May 19, 2017 @01:37PM (#14377817)
China is 175th in GDP per ton of emissions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ratio_of_...

US is 80th, not great but there's really no comparison to Chian. For rich country comparison, UK is 22nd and France is 9th.

Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by badosu on Friday May 19, 2017 @02:02PM (#14378013)
> US is 80th, not great but there's really no comparison to Chian.

This is true, but one should take into account that US's and most of the developed world economy has shifted into services and intellectual or branding schemes, exporting the dirty job of manufacturing to China.

It would be really surprising if that was not the case.

Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by mistermann on Friday May 19, 2017 @04:26PM (#14379061)
Very good point, and considering China is basically the manufacturing arm of almost every western country, any list "ranking" countries is useless propaganda.

Well, not useless I guess, considering it is propaganda.

Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by aianus on Friday May 19, 2017 @01:23PM (#14377691)
> If you took a province of China with 200 million inhabitants, it would be an extremely responsible country compared to a country of similar size.

Having such an enormous population and population density relative to Western countries is irresponsible. I don't agree that you can just divide by population and say they're fine.

Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by groby_b on Friday May 19, 2017 @02:11PM (#14378075)
* China: 142 people/sq mile.

* Italy: 197 people/sq mile

* Spain: 210 people/sq mile

* Germany: 235 people/sq mile

* Belgium: 343 people/sq mile

* United Kingdom: 650 people/sq mile

Yeah, their density compared to Western countries is truly irresponsible.

Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by macmacaka on Friday May 19, 2017 @01:46PM (#14377880)
I don't get your point. Who are referring to are not being responsible here? The Chinese government or the Chinese people? If the former, they installed one-child policy with the sole purpose of population restriction, sounds pretty "responsible" to me. If the latter, are you suggesting as a people, maybe the Chinese shouldn't breed as many, to, say, leave space for other people?
Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by elefanten on Friday May 19, 2017 @02:04PM (#14378025)
Yes, it's not particularly productive to factor China's large population into comparisons of current responsibility.

But GP has a valid point in pointing out that it's not reasonable to compare the entirety of a rich developed country to a low-density slice of China, which is very likely using fewer resources because of scarcity and underdevelopment rather than greater than average responsibility.

Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by aianus on Friday May 19, 2017 @03:43PM (#14378794)
If I choose to drive 1000km that I don't have to drive in a 35mpg Prius I am not more environmentally conscious than someone who drives 200km in a 10mpg Hummer.

Similarly if I have 10 kids instead of 2.

Anyways, I should have said "was irresponsible" since those decisions were made by their ancestors a while back and so there's not much more they can do about it now.

Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by justicezyx on Friday May 19, 2017 @08:16PM (#14380279)
The analog is pretty unreasonable. It sounds like 1000km Prius driver has an option to drive only 200km. But they may not have. I.e. a poor lower middle class worker needs to drive everyday for work, while a millionare might choose to stay at home being environmental friendly. But he might be using too much electricity...

Plus, you cannot just bash Chinese government of killing baby, while at the same time calling them environmental irresponsible...

Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by bildung on Friday May 19, 2017 @02:03PM (#14378015)
> I don't agree that you can just divide by population and say they're fine.

CO2 output per country is not a reasonable metric. If we just split China into its provinces, does that make the problem go away? After all, each of the new countries now has a pretty small CO2 output.

Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by philipkglass on Friday May 19, 2017 @04:51PM (#14379254)
The sustainability of CO2 emissions is measured in terms of emissions sources divided by its emissions sinks. A ratio above 1.0 means long term increases in atmospheric and oceanic CO2. The further above 1.0 we are, the less sustainable.

To make a very crude approximation, terrestrial emissions sinks scale proportionally with area. (Slightly less crude: sinks scale with forested area.) Generally speaking, countries need to have low emissions per unit area to be sustainable. Having low emissions per-capita but a high population density is no more sustainable than low population density and high emissions per-capita.

China has land area of 9328246 km^2 and emitted 10641789000 tons of CO2 in 2015: that's 1141 tons/km^2/year

USA has 9147590 km^2 land area and emitted 5172338000 tons CO2: 565 tons/km^2/year

Canada has 9093507 km^2 land area and emitted 555401000 tons CO2: 61 tons/km^2/year

EDIT: this was not intended to show China as "the worst." Belgium, for example, emits 3324 tons/km^2/year.

On one hand this leads to philosophical issues of justice like "luck egalitarianism": is it fair that Canadians, by accident of birth, have so much more headroom to emit sustainably than people born to the south or east of them? (Is it fair that any nation's citizens enjoy advantages from their own country's natural resources? I tend to think "yes, it's fair enough" but people may reasonably disagree.)

On the other hand, the pragmatic issue is that most countries are emitting CO2 faster than their geographic area can sink those same emissions. Certainly the largest political blocs are emitting unsustainably. The object of measuring emissions is ultimately to control them, not just to identify the party that deserves the loudest booing while we wreck the climate together. The USA, China, India, EU: none of them is "fine" and all need to make significant progress before their emissions are balanced with their sinks. (Not all of the effort needs to be on abating sources, though that's where the low hanging fruit is right now. Increasing sinking rates with afforestation, promoting soil carbon stores, and/or silicate weathering are also viable options.)

Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by bildung on Saturday May 20, 2017 @03:17AM (#14381377)
You raise a good point, but I think we have to introduce exports and imports into the calculation. As most countries are not subsistance economies, but rather produce for consumption in other countries (and import other products themselves), those exports have to be attributed to the country whose population consumes them. The products that land e.g. in Wallmarts should be attributed to U.S. CO2 output, whereas meat produced in Argentina but consumed in China should be attributed to China.

Otherwise, the numbers don't make sense: China wouldn't release that much CO2 if nobody would import from China.

Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by philipkglass on Saturday May 20, 2017 @05:54PM (#14384566)
I think that Exxon Mobil owns the responsibility for its business's CO2 impacts and can't wiggle away by saying "we're just servants to our customers' buying habits -- lecture them about emissions." Likewise I think that when Chinese factories make money from CO2-intensive exports they also own the responsibility for the corresponding environmental burden.

Of course Chinese factories may decline to voluntarily erode one of their cost advantages by bringing environmental standards up to parity with e.g. the EU, and in that case I think that the EU should use tariffs to ensure that imports don't get a competitive price advantage by way of externalized environmental damage. But that's somewhat different from believing that shoppers buying imports are really the responsible party when it comes to pollution generated by those goods' production.

Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by dmuch on Friday May 19, 2017 @01:45PM (#14377869)
huh? The question is whether a group's behavior is irresponsible. Are you saying that merely existing is irresponsible? And if so what exactly follows from that, China already has relatively low birth rate...
Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by stcredzero on Friday May 19, 2017 @12:20PM (#14377122)
Tom Clancy movie plot: Apocalyptic extremist group gets hold of a nuclear weapon and plots to use it to release a large amount of methane. However, it doesn't stop there. They also ignite the methane to create an ongoing reaction heat the hydrate deposit to release additional billions of tons of methane.

Slightly more sophisticated movie plot: Market forces accomplish basically the same thing over the period of a few decades, which still results in a runaway positive feedback loop causing more methane hydrates to release, making it warmer, etc.

Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by dharma1 on Friday May 19, 2017 @12:44PM (#14377327)
the second plot is much more likely to happen, unfortunately problems spanning a few decades don't make great movies or seem to be addressable by humans generally
Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by wohlergehen on Friday May 19, 2017 @03:28PM (#14378689)
"The Swarm" by Frank Schätzing has a semi-related plot circling around the clathrate gun hypothesis.
Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by badosu on Friday May 19, 2017 @12:53PM (#14377428)
> The real concern here is that the country that's furthest along in extracting the methane is also pretty low on the list of countries that take great care with environmental concerns.

This narrative is getting more obsolete each day. Compare the recent changes in the Trump administration regarding climate change and environmental agencies with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China

Edit (for context, 2 days ago Trump said this):

I've loosened up the strangling environmental chains wrapped around our country and our economy, chains so tight that you couldn't do anything, that jobs were going down, we were losing business. We are loosening it up,...

Re:China claims breakthrough in mining 'flammable ice' by vkou on Friday May 19, 2017 @02:50PM (#14378369)
> The real concern here is that the country that's furthest along in extracting the methane is also pretty low on the list of countries that take great care with environmental concerns.

As a westerner, you can only enjoy your 'environmentally-friendly' (It's really not) lifestyle, because you outsource all your manufacturing pollution to China.

If all the stuff you used were made domestically, your nation's carbon footprint would increase - massively. And China's would decrease.

The atmosphere doesn't care about these accounting tricks, though.