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Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by deegles on Monday May 15, 2017 @09:33PM (#14346745)
I was wondering if they've considered just leaving the first stage in orbit and then refueling it later for recovery. It might be worth it to refuel after super heavy loads on the Falcon Heavy.
Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by sitharus on Monday May 15, 2017 @09:40PM (#14346768)
The first stage never makes it to orbit, it's on a ballistic trajectory in to the Atlantic Ocean.

Landing from a short hop is a much easier operation than from orbit. So far SpaceX have abandoned second stage recovery as too hard.

Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by bisby on Monday May 15, 2017 @10:27PM (#14346947)
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/847882289581359104 as of 1.5 months ago.

> Considering trying to bring upper stage back on Falcon Heavy demo flight for full reusability. Odds of success low, but maybe worth a shot.

So they've definitely not abandoned it, and in fact, are actively considering at least as a small possibility again.

Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by aninhumer on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @04:08AM (#14348090)
Is there any information about how second stage recovery would work? A powered landing on a single vacuum engine from orbital velocity seems implausible...
Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by zardo on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @03:57PM (#14352750)
Other than "bring it back like dragon", nothing official. The addition of heatshield and some alternate landing device seems very likely.
Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by sitharus on Monday May 15, 2017 @10:52PM (#14347049)
I was referring to the standard falcon 9, but you're quite right. It'll be impressive if SpaceX manage second stage recovery.
Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by DiThi on Monday May 15, 2017 @10:10PM (#14346874)
Second stage recovery of F9 is not out of the table completely yet. It seems more likely now that there will be attempts in the future.
Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by dfox on Monday May 15, 2017 @09:49PM (#14346799)
The first stage does not have enough delta-V to reach stable orbit which is the sole reason for existence of second stage. Building something that can reach orbit with only one stage is in fact the holy grail of cheap space flight, it is my understanding that such thing is physically impossible when you carry entire used reaction mass from the surface of earth.
Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by skykooler on Monday May 15, 2017 @10:07PM (#14346862)
According to Elon Musk [1], the first stage could technically fly all the way to orbit (if it weren't lifting the rest of the rocket); it just wouldn't be able to carry a useful payload.

[1] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/669132749500887040

Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by ChuckMcM on Monday May 15, 2017 @11:53PM (#14347264)
And that answers my question. Interesting concept in that twitter feed to launch "boosters" to orbit, refill on orbit and then use them as space tugs between earth and moon. Of course 'on orbit refill' is like Toyota's "first remove the engine" step on Camry timing belt changes. Short easy to say step, encapsulating a whole lot of work and engineering.
Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by greglindahl on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @02:06AM (#14347683)
Lockheed Martin's CRS-2 losing bid involved an upper stage which could be refueled and repeatedly used. Apparently it was way too expensive.

But on-orbit refill: not only has ISS been refueled by numerous vehicles, but China just did it to their new space station. I see people saying it's hard all the time, but no one explaining if this ISS thing is inefficient or something.

Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by ChuckMcM on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @11:42AM (#14350432)
It has been my understanding that the ISS doesn't "refuel", rather the attached crew transport vehicle (the shuttle and now only the Soyuz) used their thrusters to boost its orbit. Searching for information on this I found this Quora answer (https://www.quora.com/How-does-and-how-often-does-the-ISS-ha...) which suggested there had been one test refueling.

I think you saw the same ULA presentation I did, they seemed to think it was very difficult and didn't mention the ISS at all as I recall.

Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by nickik on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @03:59PM (#14352774)
Its not that simple. You can't just do it, but the idea exist, ULA is planning something along those lines for 2024.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Cryogenic_Evolved_Sta...

Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by Tharkun on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @06:16AM (#14348527)
Why can't we strap two F9s to a Space Shuttle and recover them?
Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by brianwawok on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @09:33AM (#14349396)
The cost of the space shuttle flight would be about 50x what you recovered. Useful maybe to get a science experiment back but not to reduce launch cost.
Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by stcredzero on Monday May 15, 2017 @10:33PM (#14346969)
So throw some advanced carbon fiber construction at it and launch it from a mass driver. Then you'd have an SSTO with a small usable payload!
Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by TheSpiceIsLife on Monday May 15, 2017 @10:49PM (#14347038)
You made it sound easy.

The tallest building is about 830m high. A rocket would have to undergo some fierce acceleration to gain any useful speed over that distance. Something like pushing a bullet through water.

The stresses on such a structure, and the launch vehicle, would probably give them a limited life span.

I suspect economics plays a big role here. I suspect it is cheaper to launch multistage rockets than to build a mass driver long / tall enough to be useful.

Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by stcredzero on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @02:32PM (#14352082)
The tallest building is about 830m high.

Theoretical max height for a building using conventional skyscraper techniques is 11 miles, at which point it's ridiculously expensive. Someone at JPL did a work up of using columns made out of ultra pressurized boron balloon tanks, and found that 100km is actually possible, though also ridiculously expensive.

A rocket would have to undergo some fierce acceleration to gain any useful speed over that distance.

To convert a Falcon 1st stage into a cheat-SSTO, all you need to do is to lighten it a bit and give it a bit of a boost. Such is the nasty nature of the rocket equation. You have to accelerate the fuel you need to accelerate the fuel. So by "cheating" with accelerating the fully loaded rocket, you save a lot of fuel weight for the same final delta-v. Due to the same nasty mathematics, this translates to a tiny payload, of course.

I suspect economics plays a big role here. I suspect it is cheaper to launch multistage rockets than to build a mass driver long / tall enough to be useful.

Yadda yadda. Yes, this comes up in just about every discussion like this. It's just neat to think about what else you could do with a Falcon 1st stage. I mean, would you turn down a single stage vehicle you could take into orbit? It would make an extravagant billionaire's toy.

Actually, this general sort of scheme does have a practical use. Modify a methane-oxygen fueled 1st stage so that it could make it to a somewhat higher orbit, but still have payload for a docking and remote maneuvering system. Then have the empty tanks dock with each other to create a space station with tons of internal space. You couldn't do this with the Falcon 9, as it uses RP-1, but methane and oxygen would just boil off into vacuum.

Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by njarboe on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @01:36AM (#14347591)
With mountains and tunnels you can have a much longer runway. Maybe Musk's SpaceX and Boring companies can have a joint venture. With Everest at about 9000m and the deepest mine at 4000m that would give you 13000 meters. Maybe you could dig deeper or curve the track for an even greater launch distance and less peak acceleration.
Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by kevin_thibedeau on Monday May 15, 2017 @11:22PM (#14347144)
Why do you think Musk is investing in tunneling? Hyperloops are a nice cover for something much more practical.
Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by sitharus on Monday May 15, 2017 @10:48PM (#14347034)
Something that can withstand the acceleration of a mass driver and the accompanying atmospheric heating while still being light enough to achieve orbit would be quite the feat.
Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by brianwawok on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @09:35AM (#14349411)
Would hybrid help? Say mass driver to 1000 m/s before the rocket booster starts?
Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by zardo on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @01:16AM (#14347530)
SSTO definately isn't impossible, it just requires performance to be prioritized in every design decision. Except for deciding how many stages to use.

A single stage would be much larger for the same payload to orbit than a reusable two stage rocket. I doubt it would be cheaper to fly one.

Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by devrandomguy on Tuesday May 16, 2017 @12:32AM (#14347382)
If we're going to do creative difficult things with orbital first stages, then I would like to see them used as space stations. 3.7m OD should be nice and roomy on the inside. Perhaps, a bunch of them could be linked together into a ring? There were ideas like this for the Shuttle's big orange tank, back in the day.
Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by feelix on Monday May 15, 2017 @10:34PM (#14346977)
It's not like a car that just needs more gas to keep going. It takes a lot of refurbishment to make it so it fly again after it's taken off into space.
Re:SpaceX Launches Super-Heavy Communications Satellite by avmich on Monday May 15, 2017 @10:36PM (#14346984)
They work on making those refurbishments done within 24 hour time period.