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Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by djrogers on Thursday May 11, 2017 @03:52PM (#14318954)
I shouldn't be surprised, but the reporting on this makes it sound way different than the actual research. Specifically, none of the research appears to have been performed on, or tested against ACTUAL SMARTPHONE implementations - for example:

"Experiments on a capacitive fingerprint dataset, similar to the one used by Apple TouchID, showed that it is possible to break 6.88% of users’ account in 5 attempts if the FMR setting of the matching algorithm (Verifinger 6.1 SDK) was set to 0.01% and each subject was enrolled with one finger and 12 partial impressions per finger."

It seems that using commercial fingerprint software and captive systems 'similar to the one used by Apple TouchID' is very different from actually testing your theories against, you know, Apple TouchID.

The way you believe TouchID works may be significantly better or worse than it actually does, so don't you need to test iPhones if you're going to be giving scary quotes to reporters about them being insecure?

Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by DINKDINK on Thursday May 11, 2017 @06:11PM (#14319934)
>It seems that using commercial fingerprint software and captive systems 'similar to the one used by Apple TouchID' is very different from actually testing your theories against, you know, Apple TouchID.

In theory, there's no difference between theory in practice; In practice, there is. ;]

OTOH, Here is a supposed example of an attacker circumventing TouchID iPhone-access controls: "The video shows in detail how CCC member "Starbug" managed to fool the Touch ID sensor of Apple's new iPhone 5s – using only a scanner, tracing paper, a pcb and wood glue." [1]

https://www.heise.de/video/artikel/iPhone-5s-Touch-ID-hack-i...

Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by r00fus on Thursday May 11, 2017 @06:24PM (#14319998)
That hack uses lab conditions. They have a clear wine glass with a high resolution scanner.

More real-life conditions (smeared print, non-glass surface) would be interesting to reproduce.

My guess is that it ups the ante significantly for cost of hacking.

Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by derefr on Thursday May 11, 2017 @07:16PM (#14320302)
In "real life"—unless there was some absolute urgency to the problem—you wouldn't try to reconstruct a smudged partial print; you'd just use social engineering/espionage tactics to get a good print.

(Remember that iOS locks and/or wipes devices after 10 failed attempts. You want to go to however much effort is required to be perfect the first time.)

I can think of a number of situations one could create where a person would have no incredulity about actually inking their fingers and carefully applying fingerprints to a piece of paper. Committed adversaries aren't scared of crimes like "impersonating a police officer", remember.

Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by bigiain on Thursday May 11, 2017 @08:38PM (#14320633)
I imagine that sort of "committed adversary" is also quite capable of hitting you with a $5 wrench until you tell them the passcode...
Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by Ntrails on Friday May 12, 2017 @04:59AM (#14322405)
They only have to hit you once, and then put your finger on the button
Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by derefr on Thursday May 11, 2017 @09:24PM (#14320807)
I was presuming the sort of high-profile target where kidnapping them would quickly get some snipers emplaced and/or a MOAB dropped on you. If you want to, say, steal a nuclear submarine, you can't just kidnap an admiral and force them to hand over the keys. :P
Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by Mtinie on Thursday May 11, 2017 @10:09PM (#14320947)
No, that's the inelegant solution. Blackmail works far better with far less blowback.
Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by bigiain on Thursday May 11, 2017 @10:32PM (#14321010)
Or you just subvert their democracy and insert your own puppet commander-in-chief - that way you get _all_ the nuclear submarines...
Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by kalleboo on Friday May 12, 2017 @12:04AM (#14321359)
> Remember that iOS locks and/or wipes devices after 10 failed attempts

You only get 5 attempts at TouchID - 10 attempts is for the passcode.

Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by spondyl on Thursday May 11, 2017 @08:44PM (#14320659)
Well, 10 failed attempts doesn't necessarily hold water anymore.

Wasn't that whole "Can the FBI convince Apple to unlock this iPhone" case solved by backing up the NAND memory and constantly reflashing it after the 10 attempts were used up?

I imagine the same process can be applied in this case too

Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by snuxoll on Thursday May 11, 2017 @09:47PM (#14320887)
Things have changed in the iPhone 5s, you can't bypass the unlock limit by desoldering a NAND chip anymore.
Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by nezza-_- on Thursday May 11, 2017 @08:06PM (#14320514)
This is absolutely not a lab condition. You can very easily extract a fingerprint from a glass or so, as was done e.g. with Wolfgang Schaeuble, a German politician
Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by seven on Thursday May 11, 2017 @08:48PM (#14320678)
Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by r00fus on Friday May 12, 2017 @04:20PM (#14327541)
Did they then hack into his iPhone? What was the quality of that fingerprint?
Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by wentoodeep on Thursday May 11, 2017 @10:40PM (#14321038)
Smartphone unlock as a service?
Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by ythn on Thursday May 11, 2017 @10:02PM (#14320932)
"Theory is great in theory, but in practice, practice is better." - ZeroMQ Guide
Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by fauigerzigerk on Thursday May 11, 2017 @06:05PM (#14319907)
>I shouldn't be surprised, but the reporting on this makes it sound way different than the actual research. Specifically, none of the research appears to have been performed on, or tested against ACTUAL SMARTPHONE implementations

That is exactly what the article says. Specifically:

The researchers did not test their approach with real phones, and other security experts said the match rate would be significantly lower in real-life conditions.

and

“To really know what the impact would be on a cellphone, you’d have to try it on the cellphone,” she said.

and

Dr. Ross acknowledged the limitations of the work.

Half of the article is about the limitations of the approach the paper used, so I fail to understand your criticism of the reporting.

Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by djrogers on Thursday May 11, 2017 @06:52PM (#14320177)
The article currently linked here is not the same one originally linked. It was changed after I made my post.

That said, the headline still explicitly calls out smartphones.

Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by pbhjpbhj on Thursday May 11, 2017 @10:58PM (#14321105)
>article currently linked here is not the same one originally linked //

Grr, hate it when they do that, it's clearly too hard to add a second link "previously the linked article was: ..."?

Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by yorwba on Friday May 12, 2017 @02:01AM (#14321746)
Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by fauigerzigerk on Friday May 12, 2017 @06:09AM (#14322681)
Oh, I see! Now that is weird. Apologies.
Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by huxley on Thursday May 11, 2017 @06:40PM (#14320106)
While the article does say that ... eventually, the headline and the first two and a half paragraphs undermine your point.

Since most people won't actually read and digest the full article, but instead go by the headline "That Fingerprint Sensor on Your Phone Is Not as Safe as You Think" and read the first paragraph or so, none of the caveats matter much, people will walk away with the impression that this is a verified fact.

Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by bobbles on Thursday May 11, 2017 @06:53PM (#14320185)
Maybe because the headline is: That Fingerprint Sensor on Your Phone Is Not as Safe as You Think

when in fact, probably they are

Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by Nightshaxx on Friday May 12, 2017 @03:55AM (#14322171)
> The researchers did not test their approach with real phones, and other security experts said the match rate would be significantly lower in real-life.

You are indeed correct. I wish someone would do a full test on how secure the readers are.

Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by pinum on Thursday May 11, 2017 @06:00PM (#14319877)
I understand it's difficult to test against the actual Touch ID, since it has aggressive hardware-enforced cooldowns and other defensive tech.
Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by ballenf on Thursday May 11, 2017 @06:12PM (#14319942)
So it's a lock that's too hard to pick to prove how easy it is to pick?
Re:Smartphones can be fooled by fake, digitally composed fin... by mikeash on Thursday May 11, 2017 @11:18PM (#14321165)
It should be easy on a phone you control. You can try five times quickly, then it stops accepting fingerprints until you put in the password. This is a major problem for an attacker, but if you're just researching it then you can put in the password to reenable fingerprint authentication and then get five more tries. You should be able to try 20-30 fingerprints per minute.