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Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by redm on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @01:02PM (#14309735)
I think the key point here is not whether Google is abusing its effective monopoly willingly, its that it exists at all. There may be alternatives, but not viable ones.

Try not supporting Chrome or ignoring Chrome requirements such as security mandates, you will go out of business. You can say these are 'good' for the consumer but the fact that Google has the ability to unilaterally change the web itself is partially the issue, they are not a standards body.

Whats the viable alternative to Google Search? Sure you can use Bing as a customer, but if you're a website operator you HAVE to stay on Google's good side. (not always easy to do)

Whats the viable alternative to Adsense? Especially when it comes to many Geo's that are hard to monetize.

Whats the viable alternative to Android?

Not all aspects of Google's business are so dominated, but where they are, you have little choice but to go with Google and the fact that are dominate in so many key segments is troubling.

Let's be honest, it's not like Google makes themselves easy to contact, interact with, or get support from. They are in many ways a black box.

Ever notice how the transparency reports for Safe Browsing never includes Google Properties or how they are happy to report DMCA issues for the internet, but never for Youtube?

Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by scarface74 on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @01:18PM (#14309846)
Whats the viable alternative to Google Search? Sure you can use Bing as a customer, but if you're a website operator you HAVE to stay on Google's good side. (not always easy to do)

Or you can not base your business on the fickleness of Google's search algorithms. Ben Thompson (stratechery.com) posts one article per week publically and charged $100 a year for his newsletter. The only time he gave numbers, he has over 2000 subscribers.

There are other ways to build a business that don't depend on search.

Whats the viable alternative to Adsense? Especially when it comes to many Geo's that are hard to monetize.

If you are in a certain niche, find a publication or a podcast that serves that niche and make a direct connection to them. Marco Arment - a one man development shop - created his own podcast based advertising platform that is doing well.

What's the viable alternative to Android

The viable alternative to Android is...Android. Many companies are forking the AOSP version of Android and running their own services, including Amazon in the U.S. and a few companies in developing markets.

The danger Google faces is not that a company will come up with a better search engine, it's that people will start using search engines less as mobile takes over along with digital assistants that give you the information you want.

Facebook is already seen as a place for old people and young people may have a FB page but they aren't posting to it because their parents are on it.

Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by zeteo on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @02:28PM (#14310427)
> There are other ways to build a business that don't depend on search.

There are also other ways to run a household that don't depend on running water. (Heck, my great-grandpa never complained about having an outhouse.) Are you saying your local water utility should be an unregulated monopoly?

Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by giggles_giggles on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @03:28PM (#14310905)
Who exactly regulates the sewer/water monopoly held by a local government?

I cannot even begin to explain the insidious local politics surrounding the local water utility in the city where my folks used to live and the way they forced homeowners to hook up to the ever-expanding sewer at cost to the homeowners, regardless of whether their existing septic systems were adequate or not, to pad the pockets of the contractors paid by the city and to aid in further annexation of the area outside the city.

A water utility run by the local government as a monopoly is only regulated by local politics, and if you have any experience with local politics you know that's mostly just figuring out who's the biggest good ol' boy.

Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by zeteo on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @03:51PM (#14311061)
Local politics might be bad, but it'd be far worse to have it run by Google. They'd never pick up your customer support calls; they'd be more concerned with using ML to figure out when you sh*t and when you shower (valuable data for advertisers, you see). Also they'd randomly remove you from the network all the time for no apparent reason.
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by giggles_giggles on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @05:38PM (#14311961)
I see where you're coming from (and your comment is very funny) however my experience with Google Fiber as an ISP and Google's Project Fi as an MVNO is pretty much the opposite. They've been great, including customer service. And those are utilities, essentially, no? That's the whole argument behind Net Neutrality, that ISPs are providing a utility.
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by zeteo on Thursday May 11, 2017 @12:19PM (#14317215)
Google Fiber is relatively small. Google itself was not a bad company when it was small ("don't be evil" and all that).
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by fixermark on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @03:28PM (#14310908)
You seem to be trying to build an analogy between a person's right to a material necessity and a corporation's right to a convenient market. I don't think the analogy holds.

(The flip side would be "Are you saying Google should be a nationalized, government-regulated search engine?")

Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by zeteo on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @04:10PM (#14311201)
Well how do we define a necessity? Running water, electricity and telephone service were all a luxury at some point. But now people have come to rely on them, to the point where it would be socially devastating to stop providing these services. Using an Internet search engine is no longer a luxury either. At the very least, Google should have a more transparent and accountable process, since a lot of people and companies have come to depend on its search engine functioning properly.
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by rayiner on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @03:33PM (#14310930)
Municipal sewer/water isn't a material necessity, they're a convenience. There are million dollar houses in the D.C. suburbs that have well water/septic.
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by fixermark on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @05:01PM (#14311679)
That's true. "Any water" is a material necessity (I think I'd argue "any sewer" too, if you plan to not pick up and nomad yourself around every few weeks). If you can self-supply it, that's fine.
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by scarface74 on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @02:41PM (#14310532)
Yes and there are plenty of houses that couldn't get water from the municipality and got their water from a well. My grandparents had a well for 30 years.
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by kemiller2002 on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @02:53PM (#14310623)
Actually, I live in the middle of a city, and I still can't get water from the municipality.
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by easilyBored on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @01:49PM (#14310098)
"Or you can not base your business on the fickleness of Google's search algorithms."

Or you can not base your business on the fickleness of your phone company's /ISP algorithms. Google is a much as 90% of referrals for many websites.

Answer this: Are you sure that Google updates their search algorithm independent of revenue impact? I remember reading from FTC's investigation that Google kept changing their "independent" SE rater's criteria until it eventually met Google's own goals. You think Singhal didn't know what changes hurt Google's revenue (ad clicks plus sites forced to advertise)?

Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by scarface74 on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @04:23PM (#14311307)
Or you can not base your business on the fickleness of your phone company's /ISP algorithms. Google is a much as 90% of referrals for many websites

Business 101 is that you're always in trouble if you depend on one supplier for the majority of your business. The second example I have is John Gruber (daringfireball.com). He never sold ads based on the number of active visitors.

He sells one RSS sponsorship at the beginning of the week and a thank you post at the end of the week. His revenue wasn't affected when he lost half his readership.

Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by ellyagg on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @04:44PM (#14311522)
> Business 101 is that you're always in trouble if you depend on one supplier for the majority of your business.

You're making the point. It's hard to build an online business without appeasing Google and that they need to is bad for small and fledgling businesses.

It's possible to build an online business without Google, of course. There are usually alternatives to monopolies, just ones that cost a lot more or are much riskier or much lower quality, etc. I don't agree that it's just as easy to build an online business without Google.

Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by scarface74 on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @07:21PM (#14312624)
Whoever said that building a sucessful business "should be easy"? The two examples I gave John Gruber and Ben Thompson are both one man shops who built businesses based on writing articles that people wanted to read and building a reputation.

In Gruber's case, he built a reputation strong enough that he routinesly gets Apple's SVPs to come on his podcast. He doesn't depend on an ad network. He sells ads directly - one per week.

Ben Thompson built a strong enough following just based on reputation to get over 2000 people to pay him $100 a year for a newsletter.

How "risky" is it to start a blog on the side until you get enough readership to figure out a business model?

Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by secfirstmd on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @01:27PM (#14309916)
Hmm forking Android and turning the ecosystem into a complete mess around stuff like security updates. To the point were a lot of people, including myself, are considering buying a Google device purely to ensure some sort of longevity.
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by praneshp on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @01:37PM (#14309985)
I just finished having a heated argument with friends living in India (that work at investment banks, so not exactly old people with some calling device in hand).

A bunch of them were complaining that Uber is being bad, requiring camera permissions, etc. The newer androids have nicer permissions systems, requested at runtime. But they are running Android 5* because the shiny turd of a phone they got supports only that, but looks awesome. AOSP is good and all, but I'll never buy anything that is not a Google device unless I magically have free time to root it and run an OS I trust (which might or might not exist).

Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by yunoe on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @05:52PM (#14312051)
I think you all are missing the point. As Google gave away Android for free with the support of their brand, services and user base it essentially killed all the alternatives (MeeGo, WebOS, BlackBerry 10) and companies that were focused on software (Palm, Ericsson, Nokia, Motorola, BlackBerry). It's not at all unexpected that these Asian companies can't compete in terms of systems design, both in terms of experience and ownership, but also just cost. Almost no one is making any money (other than Samsung, which is extremely very vertically integrated, at least in theory). Throwing in cheaper chips and making the software flashier is really the only business model that is available, even if some manufacturers like Mi do offer long term support.
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by scarface74 on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @01:38PM (#14309993)
Google only guaranteed support for two years. Not exactly what I would call "longevity".
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by aaomidi on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @02:06PM (#14310234)
Two years of OS updates and three years of security updates.

The devices that google had and weren't using Qualcomm CPU got updates for a lot longer (e.g Nexus Player).

It gets very, very annoying for Google to try to support phones that use CPUs that don't update or release anything anymore.

Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by jorvi on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @04:14PM (#14311235)
I never understood how 'SoC manufacture X doesn't release updates for that SoC' translates into 'we can't update/support this device anymore'. My OnePlus One is whizzing along happily on Nougat (7.1.2) via LineageOS. There's also a well working ported version of OxygenOS 3.1 for it, despite OnePlus having abandoned it on 2.1; Hell, even the Samsung Galaxy S2 can still run Nougat via, again, LineageOS. What's preventing Google, Samsung or OnePlus (who are a lot more well-funded than a ragtag group of devs) from doing the same, aside from pure unfettered greed?
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by scarface74 on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @07:16PM (#14312597)
I never understood how 'SoC manufacture X doesn't release updates for that SoC' translates into 'we can't update/support this device anymore

Apple uses some third party chips but they haven't had that problem. Currently, iOS 10.3 supports the iPhone 5 - released in 2012. I suspect that iOS 11 when it comes out in September will keep support for all 64 bit iPhones. That would mean the iPhone 5s introduced in 2013 will be supported until September 2018.

Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by majewsky on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @04:31PM (#14311388)
Because the LineageOS installer does not give any warranty that it won't brick the phone beyond repair. If Google updates Android and it uses an unsupported Qualcomm driver and that thing breaks anything, Google may be held liable in court and forced to pay damages.
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by secfirstmd on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @03:42PM (#14310993)
Agreed, but it's better than most Android offerings these days...
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by sjg007 on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @05:58PM (#14312108)
Nextgen NLP search / digital assistant.
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by vkorsunov on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @02:57PM (#14310669)
I think we can compete with Google ;) We developing search platform https://bubblehunt.com - where every user can create own search system without code and become independent information provider.
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by Erik816 on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @02:16PM (#14310323)
Well, it does matter, because under the U.S. antitrust law it is not illegal to have a monopoly. It is illegal to abuse your monopoly position. See United States v. Aluminum Corp. of America, 148 F.2d 416, 430 (1945) Learned Hand J, the "successful competitor, having been urged to compete, must not be turned on when he wins." European antitrust law is more strict and you can run into problems just for having a monopoly position even if you do not abuse it or obtain it unfairly.
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by yazan94 on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @03:14PM (#14310807)
I think this is a really interesting point. In a capitalist/free-market situation, no one cares if you start a business and fail. Competition is seen as a good thing. But how can you blame a company for winning in its domain against its competitors?

Also, what does it mean to 'abuse' a monopoly position. I don't think its practical to argue that Google doesn't have a monopoly on internet search[1]. When your product name becomes a replacement term for what your product does/is, that just shows how widely used your product is (another example: Q-Tips vs cotton swabs). But how do you prove or argue that Google hasn't abused its position?

[1] https://www.netmarketshare.com/search-engine-market-share.as... (though I don't know how credible this source is)

Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @03:26PM (#14310896)
> Also, what does it mean to 'abuse' a monopoly position.

IANAL, but there is a legally precise meaning. (Of course, lawyers will still argue over whether a particular behavior meets the definition.) But it's basically, you have a monopoly in X, and you try to use that monopoly to gain you market share in Y.

For example, let's say Microsoft has a monopoly in operating systems. That's OK, nothing wrong with it, because Microsoft came by that monopoly more or less honestly. But let's say that Microsoft uses that monopoly to try to give it a leg up in office apps (maybe by its own office app people learning about OS changes well before release of the new OS, but competitors not learning about them in time, so that there's a period of time when Microsoft has the only office apps that work with the new OS). That's not OK.

Or let's say that Google has a monopoly on search. That's OK, so far. But let's say that Google manipulates the search results to promote Android (say, by making Android phones come up at the top of the list whenever someone searches for a phone). That's monopoly abuse.

Now, what I'm hearing people complain about is that Google uses Chrome to maintain its monopoly in search. As I said, IANAL, but I'm not sure that counts. That's taking something Google doesn't have a monopoly on (browsers) and using it to try to maintain Google's monopoly in search. That's not the same as monopoly abuse. (It's still sleazy.)

Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by bnolsen on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @03:51PM (#14311062)
Microsoft dealing under the table with OEM manufacturers, forcing none to reveal any details of the deals is absolutely a prime example of abuse of their monopoly position in the OS world. A shame they never convicted of these deals.
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @03:59PM (#14311117)
Especially the part where they lose their preferential price for Windows if they sell any systems with Linux installed? Yeah. (I don't think those terms are any longer in force, but there was a time...)
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by yazan94 on Thursday May 11, 2017 @10:26AM (#14316232)
You bring up good points, and I didn't know that the term abuse had a legally precise meaning. I do want to disagree here though:

> Now, what I'm hearing people complain about is that Google uses Chrome to maintain its monopoly in search.

I think this isn't any different than IE or Edge promoting MSN or Bing. I wouldn't say its sleazy, just that they (Microsoft, Google, whoever) is trying to tie their products together to make an ecosystem. Like how iPhones come shipped with Safari (another Apple product). But then again, IANAL either.

Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by Nomentatus on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @10:16PM (#14313433)
So, there's no bundling going on with Android? Google never bought a company that held another patent? (Patent misuse includes using one patent to buy another, or extend your business.) "Abuse" isn't something bizarre, it includes many otherwise normal business practices that allow a monopoly to become a cancer spreading out everywhere. The really strange court decisions that held that efficiency (for Google) trumped bundling happened in N.A.
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by sfifs on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @01:41PM (#14310017)
This appears to be a common misconception that monopolies are bad from a public policy standpoint.

For public policy, the existence of a monopoly is neither here nor there. Monopolies are problem ONLY IF their operations causes negative economic effects to consumers - typically by raising prices. Indeed in many cases (eg. Transport, Infrastructure) a monopoly is actively granted in return for guaranteed availability and pricing.

In Google's case, it would be very very difficult for any lawyer to show how their actions actively hurt consumers - note consumers, not businesses.

Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by blowski on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @03:05PM (#14310729)
"Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Google clearly has a monopoly. Eventually they will abuse it, even if they're not doing so already (which is open to debate). The stronger their control, the more damage they will do and the harder it will be to release ourselves from it.

Monopolies are bad, although sometimes they are the least bad choice. I see plenty of good alternatives to Google's monopoly.

Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by AlexandrB on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @04:56PM (#14311645)
> Monopolies are problem ONLY IF their operations causes negative economic effects to consumers - typically by raising prices.

The more I think about it, the more it seems as thought we need to put a price tag on the data companies collect about users. Google may be raising prices all the time by tracking more and more data about you, but this is completely opaque because even though information is "the new oil" no one puts a real price tag on it.

Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by amsilprotag on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @03:51PM (#14311054)
Is this true? Wasn't Microsoft brought down for harming incipient businesses by bundling competing software into the OS? Wasn't standard oil fragmented in part for receiving anti-competitive freight fares?

Couldn't it be argued that Google's featured snippets and accelerated mobile pages will lower the revenue of content creators and thus decrease consumer surplus in the long term?

Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by sfifs on Thursday May 11, 2017 @12:22AM (#14313807)
I'm not a lawyer but I think what ultimately bit Microsoft was the fact that they were trying to contractually restrict OEMs from including alternatives (arguably harming consumers) and trying to argue that IE was part​ of the OS when there was evidence it was not. Certainly the settlement remedies after appeal primarily seem to focus on not restricting OEMs from installing alternatives.

Google lawyers have undoubtedly analysed the case with a fine toothed comb and would likely use the permissive open source licenses under which it provides Android and Chrome sources (and allows manufacturers to roll their own versions) to argue they don't restrict anyone.

Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by lm_nop on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @06:17PM (#14312241)
Could also be argued that Google AMP (Accelerated mobile pages) enables publishers to get SOME ad revenue in spite of rise of ad blockers. Thus mitigating, and dare I say using monopoly for some-what good-ish intentions?
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by maverick_iceman on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @04:10PM (#14311196)
Yes, what GP said is true, at least since the 80s. Before that, too powerful monopolies were considered bad for society; that's why Standard Oil was broken up. However, understanding of US antitrust law underwent a shift in the 80s - now a monopoly has to actively hurt the end consumer for it to be prosecuted under the Sherman antitrust act.
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by gozur88 on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @03:54PM (#14311080)
So there are alternatives, but for one reason or another they're not as attractive? Doesn't sound like a monopoly to me.
Re:“Google Is as Close to a Natural Monopoly as the Bell Sys... by maverick_iceman on Wednesday May 10, 2017 @03:53PM (#14311071)
>Whats the viable alternative to Android?

iOS.