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Re:Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturin... by theptip on Thursday May 04, 2017 @01:02PM (#14266543)
Trade has certainly fucked _some_ workers. But it helped others; it's just a lot harder to see the ways in which the average American worker is better off, because the benefits of trade are spread across the economy, and the costs are concentrated among a smaller number of individuals.

Here's a libertarian making this point: http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2017/04/does_trade_with....

"Using novel data on firms from the US Census Bureau, I show that the data support this view: US firms expanded manufacturing employment as reorganization toward less exposed industries in response to increased Chinese imports in US output and input markets allowed them to reduce the cost of production."

Or Paul Krugman talking about the same, if you prefer that angle: https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/trade-and-jobs-...

Sure, there are arguments on each side. But it's not as cut and dried as your last paragraph suggests.

Re:Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturin... by ajross on Thursday May 04, 2017 @01:08PM (#14266601)
That's exactly the right frame. Globalism "totally fucked" the american worker in the sense that the western working class broadly hasn't seen any net improvement in quality of life over the last two decades or so. Certainly nothing to compare with the gains seen in the western professional classes.

Globalism also quite literally lifted hundreds of millions of non-western (mostly, not exclusively chinese) workers out of destitution and into the middle class.

Let's keep some perspective on this, please. We can certainly do better with equality of opportunity here in the US, but let's check that privilege a little before demanding to unwind all the gains made elsewhere. To the rest of the world, the 1960's were a nightmare, not a golden age.

Re:Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturin... by frgtpsswrdlame on Thursday May 04, 2017 @02:55PM (#14267640)
Every country has it's own citizens as a first priority. If a working-class American is harmed to make an already wealthy american wealthier and to make the 5 Indonesians/Chinese/Africans/etc. that wealthy american hires better off then our country should rise up to reject that.
Re:Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturin... by lukas099 on Thursday May 04, 2017 @04:52PM (#14268698)
Hm. I've always thought that improving the economies of other nations is in our own ultimate self-interest.
Re:Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturin... by frgtpsswrdlame on Thursday May 04, 2017 @05:09PM (#14268858)
Sure and in the cases where it is in our self-interest then go ahead, but the whole reason we've got this "populist uprising" is because people are looking around and seeing a lot things being done that aren't in their interest.
Re:Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturin... by lukas099 on Thursday May 04, 2017 @05:47PM (#14269159)
A change can be very bad for a group within a country, but better for the long-term self-interest of the country as a whole, though.

If a globalization measure pushes a large number of Americans out of jobs temporarily, it could be the basis of such a "populist uprise", but couldn't it be better for the country as a whole if it opens up new areas for economic growth, even on a purely self-interested level?

And couldn't part of the gain for America be in building up a prosperous nation with trading ties? Not to mention the lower risk of conflict with another nation with whom America has such ties?

Re:Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturin... by frgtpsswrdlame on Thursday May 04, 2017 @11:06PM (#14270850)
You know it's strange because I can only ever find people arguing this when they know they won't be the ones to be out of a job. Aka this forum is pretty open to the idea of people being displaced but go check out some of the threads here about H1Bs, there's a lot of vehement opposition there. Or for a hypothetical, imagine we were able to import or outsource our politicians to cheaper politicians in India. How quickly do you think that market would be closed off? Yet we abstract ourselves away from the problem and declare that maybe if all these people suffer we'll be better off for it in the end. In society we make those tradeoffs, that's reality but once we start sacrificing more and larger groups surely we come to a point where we realize maybe it's not actually worth it?
Re:Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturin... by lukas099 on Friday May 05, 2017 @09:35AM (#14273289)
> You know it's strange because I can only ever find people arguing this when they know they won't be the ones to be out of a job.

True. You've pretty much identified the nature of special interest groups and why they have so much power.

Re:Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturin... by jameswatson_iii on Thursday May 04, 2017 @04:27PM (#14268481)
Rational self interest? Heresy!

We must ride the train of pathological altruism to the very end!

Ironically, this religion of globalism is a crude form of Christianity, with none of the pretty prose. The original sin of success must be paid for by eternal self-flagellation.

Even more interestingly, this new religion has only taken root in the west, which has mostly abandoned traditional religious dogma. Perhaps pathological altruism is inherent in those of western genetic origin? The non-western world appears to have none of these hangups regarding their past successes. I don't see Japanese and Chinese leaders flooding their nation with immigrant labor to atone for their recent economic gains while demonizing their own people for past sins.

Fascinating indeed.

Re:Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturin... by jcmoscon on Thursday May 04, 2017 @01:12PM (#14266652)
>Globalism also quite literally lifted hundreds of millions of non-western (mostly, not exclusively chinese) workers out of destitution and into the middle class. Do you know how the "lifted" the poor to middle class in Brazil? By redefining what is middle class. This is all left wing bs my friend!
Re:Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturin... by carsongross on Thursday May 04, 2017 @01:06PM (#14266582)
> But it's not as cut and dried as your last paragraph suggests.

It was the libertarians and liberal economic establishment who claimed it was cut and dried that unrestricted free trade was better for all Americans. Anyone who objected (Buchanan, Perot, now Trump) was obviously stupid, and probably racist.

Re:Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturin... by nickik on Thursday May 04, 2017 @01:21PM (#14266744)
No economist makes the argument that free trade is better for all americans. Thats simply not what economic theory says.

Economist have studid the problem for a long time and the wastly overwhelming majority still support it. They have actually fought about the problem quite a bit.

You would do well to actually understand the argument instead of mischaracterising it.

Re:Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturin... by hiram112 on Thursday May 04, 2017 @03:58PM (#14268190)
While agree with you - it was always noted in the fine print that there would be losers in the globalization game - it just wasn't stated that 95% of us would lose, while .1% would win bigly.