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Re:Is the GPL Really Declining? by phkahler on Thursday May 04, 2017 @11:16AM (#14265413)
>> I want anyone to be able to do whatever they want to with my code. That includes developers wanting to create a proprietary application. Telling them they can't is not freedom.

You emphasized anyone but by allowing developers to take the code proprietary, their users (which are using your code) are being denied the freedom you promote. This is of course the distinction between GPL and BSD-type licenses. One gives developers all the freedom they want while the other ensures that all users (including those using derivative works) are given those freedoms.

>> I feel we've lost ourselves in the freedom of users and forgotten about the people that make the applications for the users.

No, we have not. One form of license ensures all users have the right to do whatever they want with the code. The other form (which some call permissive) grants the right to deny others those freedoms. I understand both stances, but I believe calling the right to deny others rights "permissive" is rather misleading.

Re:Is the GPL Really Declining? by joshuamorton on Thursday May 04, 2017 @12:03PM (#14265893)
>You emphasized anyone but by allowing developers to take the code proprietary, their users (which are using your code) are being denied the freedom you promote. This is of course the distinction between GPL and BSD-type licenses. One gives developers all the freedom they want while the other ensures that all users (including those using derivative works) are given those freedoms.

Their users are not being denied the freedom to use my code, their users are being denied the freedom to use their code, which is their right.

The cynic in me really thinks its important to wonder why there exists a GNU, and not an organization formed around and sustained by the MIT license.

Re:Is the GPL Really Declining? by phkahler on Thursday May 04, 2017 @12:37PM (#14266275)
>> Their users are not being denied the freedom to use my code, their users are being denied the freedom to use their code, which is their right.

Unless they know it came from you and where to get it (which will not be advertised), they are. Also, after you die and your source code is gone, the derivative work could still go on to whatever success and none of the users of your code will have access to it except for that developer of the derivative work.

Re:Is the GPL Really Declining? by joshuamorton on Thursday May 04, 2017 @12:41PM (#14266319)
>Unless they know it came from you and where to get it (which will not be advertised), they are.

And almost all licenses require attribution.

>Also, after you die and your source code is gone, the derivative work could still go on to whatever success and none of the users of your code will have access to it except for that developer of the derivative work.

This makes no sense. The source code of what I did will still be around, and still be attributed. Dying doesn't make my work disappear into the ether.

Re:Is the GPL Really Declining? by phkahler on Thursday May 04, 2017 @01:25PM (#14266795)
>> This makes no sense. The source code of what I did will still be around, and still be attributed. Dying doesn't make my work disappear into the ether.

Yes it does, unless someone keeps it online or somehow available. But again, just because it technically exists somewhere doesn't mean a user of the derived work will know how to find it, nor what parts that work are actually covered by your code prior to finding it. You are starting to sound like someone deliberately not getting the point of this.

I see a valid need for "permissive" licenses, but the legitimate reasons are rarely cited by proponents of the licenses.

Re:Is the GPL Really Declining? by joshuamorton on Thursday May 04, 2017 @02:26PM (#14267373)
>But again, just because it technically exists somewhere doesn't mean a user of the derived work will know how to find it

This sounds pretty ridiculous to me. Can you cite an example of abandonware that completely disappeared from the public internet but continued to be used by some user-facing product? It seems to me that if development stagnates on a project entirely, its almost a certainty that the project is unused, or has been forked (and potentially new changes have been placed under another license).

>nor what parts that work are actually covered by your code prior to finding it

So, the open source license should really only be relevant to highly technical users (that is, my parents will never care about the license software is under). I'd hope those users are capable of discerning what the OSS licensed software does.

Re:Is the GPL Really Declining? by WorldMaker on Thursday May 04, 2017 @04:32PM (#14268522)
I think this is partly why the GPL makes much more sense pre-internet in the eras of floppy and CD distribution. (It shouldn't be surprising that the GPL 3 still has physical media requirements.) With the internet it is hard not to think that source code is "merely" a search away.
Re:Is the GPL Really Declining? by joshuamorton on Thursday May 04, 2017 @05:09PM (#14268854)
This is fair, and admittedly I'm young. By the time I started writing code, github already existed. I can't really fathom a situation where all versions of a library could fall out of public access, unless that library was truly and completely unused.
Re:Is the GPL Really Declining? by ori_b on Thursday May 04, 2017 @03:37PM (#14267994)
> The cynic in me really thinks its important to wonder why there exists a GNU, and not an organization formed around and sustained by the MIT license.

Of course. The MIT license is the legal equivalent of putting shit out on your lawn with a big 'FREE' sign. There's no need to protect that. The GPL requires you to pay the developers in contributions, which requires enforcement.

Re:Is the GPL Really Declining? by quadrangle on Tuesday May 09, 2017 @02:21AM (#14298084)
> The GPL requires you to pay the developers in contributions

No it does not. The GPL is a downstream license. It requires you pass on the freedoms if you share with others. It does not have any requirement that anything be upstreamed back to the place you got the software from.

Re:Is the GPL Really Declining? by phkahler on Thursday May 04, 2017 @12:40PM (#14266307)
>> The cynic in me really thinks its important to wonder why there exists a GNU, and not an organization formed around and sustained by the MIT license.

The cynic is me says the answer is that the people interested in MIT licensing are not very interested in sharing their work with others in an organization.

Don't get me wrong, there are instances where MIT or BSD licenses make sense. Desktop software is not one of them.

Re:Is the GPL Really Declining? by joshuamorton on Thursday May 04, 2017 @12:56PM (#14266480)
>The cynic is me says the answer is that the people interested in MIT licensing are not very interested in sharing their work with others in an organization.

What does this mean?

Re:Is the GPL Really Declining? by mook on Thursday May 04, 2017 @12:03PM (#14265891)
Don't forget the weak-copyleft licenses like the MPL, where it's perfectly fine to use it in commercial projects, but all users are guaranteed access to the copyleft source code (but not the proprietary code on top).
Re:Is the GPL Really Declining? by thesuitonym on Thursday May 04, 2017 @12:46PM (#14266376)
This is exactly what MIT and BSD licenses do.
Re:Is the GPL Really Declining? by snovv_crash on Thursday May 04, 2017 @01:14PM (#14266679)
False. If I take a BSD/MIT library and fork it, I don't need to contribute the changes back.

The MPL(v2) forces forks to be open source, but any files added to the project can remain closed source allowing it to be used as a library for closed source applications.

Re:Is the GPL Really Declining? by thesuitonym on Thursday May 04, 2017 @01:47PM (#14267005)
Okay but that's not what I was replying to. The post I replied to made no mention of reciprocity, only saying that the original code was available.
Re:Is the GPL Really Declining? by eropple on Thursday May 04, 2017 @04:25PM (#14268468)
He explicitly calls out "copyleft source code." That means reciprocity.
Re:Is the GPL Really Declining? by quadrangle on Tuesday May 09, 2017 @02:23AM (#14298094)
Copyleft is about pay-it-forward not reciprocity. There's zero reciprocity in copyleft besides the incidental fact that updates paid-forward to others might be discovered and accessed by the original person who gave you the software (or that you could share the updates back in reciprocity, but that's not part of the license, it's just something you might do).
Re:Is the GPL Really Declining? by arglwarg on Thursday May 04, 2017 @12:53PM (#14266452)
Nope (also that would imply there is not functional difference between non-reciprocal licenses like MIT/BSD and a reciprocal one like MPLv2).

The original article highlights LibreOffice and its success using the reciprocal MPLv2 not without reason.

[Edit: mixed up the first paragraph.]

Re:Is the GPL Really Declining? by bonzini on Thursday May 04, 2017 @04:06PM (#14268273)
No, MIT and BSD allow proprietary derivatives of any kind, throwing away any expectations of reciprocity.

MPL and LGPL draw a line between code that is allowed to be distributed under a proprietary license, and code where the copyleft applies.

Re:Is the GPL Really Declining? by yellowapple on Thursday May 04, 2017 @04:31PM (#14268509)
> their users (which are using your code) are being denied the freedom you promote.

This is often asserted, but unless those proprietary software developers are somehow able to magically erase your own claim to copyright, the user is no less free when using your original version.

My code is not denying anyone's freedom. Someone downstream might be denying their users' freedom, but those are their users, not mine. Downstream use of my code for evil purposes is outside of the scope of my own development.

What is in scope, however, is the idea that a downstream developer should either contribute code back to me (whether privately or via license reciprocation) or not claim one's own product to be equivalent to my code. The Artistic License 2.0 does a decent job at that.