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Re:Fake IDs in the age of the internet by djsumdog on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @12:24PM (#14257246)
This. MADD really is fighting the wrong battle and should be a lobby for real mass transit in most major US cities. The idea that America is "too spread out" is a terrible myth.

Every America city I've lived it use to have amazing tram systems. They're all gone now; killed by the desire of Ford and GM to see us a car future. There is an amazing amount of advertising that trained Americans to love their cars and consider buses as the means of transport for the poor.

More walkable spaces and better community transport; removing the necessity for a car, would greatly reduce the amount of drunk driving more than fines/jail-time/campaigns. It's insane that the US drinking age is still 21 when so many of other countries, from most of Europe to Australia to Canada to Singapore, all have 18 as their drinking age.

Re:Fake IDs in the age of the internet by dionidium on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @03:52PM (#14259386)
No, it actually really is too spread out. My hometown of St. Louis once had an extensive streetcar network, that much is true; but you're missing a key point: that network was almost entirely within the 66 square miles of the original St. Louis City limits.

The region is now spread far, far beyond those original borders. Only about 300k of the 2.8 million residents of greater St. Louis currently live within those limits.

The historic streetcar network cannot be replicated today precisely because, yes, we are too spread out.

Re:Fake IDs in the age of the internet by djsumdog on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @04:27PM (#14259730)
This is really short sighted. If that original tram network was kept in place and upgraded, then money could have been spent on suburban rail networks.

Excellent examples: Melbourne and Adelaide in Australia. In fact, Adelaide is pretty spread out and suburban, but it still has a nicely laid out (if a bit dated) train network). Melbourne didn't ditch their trams and now have the largest network in the world (and they still have tons of suburbs with regional V-Lines reaching almost all of them).

If the tram networks hadn't been removed, we would have seen different priorities. Also, just because it's gone now, doesn't mean we shouldn't start fixing it. The amazing thing is when you do lay out rail, people tend to start building around them; including stores and housing. They have a an incredible impact on commerce simply by being laid down. There is a psychological impact of seeing the rails and seeing the trams pass at constant intervals that changes the way people think about transport.

Re:Fake IDs in the age of the internet by dionidium on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @05:11PM (#14260133)
This is really short sighted. If that original tram network was kept in place and upgraded, then money could have been spent on suburban rail networks.

I'm passionately in favor of your counterfactual. If we hadn't allowed so much low-density development, if we'd have kept and extended the streetcar lines, if we hadn't invested so much in automobile infrastructure, then we'd be in a much better position today.

But now we're faced with a confluence of factors that make getting to that counterfactual really, really hard. Those factors, collectively, are what I'm referring to when I say we're too "spread out."

"Spread out" isn't just about distance; it's about population size over a given area. It's about density, in other words.

Re:Fake IDs in the age of the internet by FireBeyond on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @04:47PM (#14259907)
Exactly like the sibling poster showed, there are multiple examples of this not being the case.

Melbourne has 4.6M people in 3800 sq mi.

It has a tram/light rail network of over 160 miles of track on 24 separate routes, and nearly two thousand tram stops. It runs a network of nearly 500 trams, and carries 200 million passengers a year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_Melbourne#/media/File...

To give scale to that map, the radius of those routes (you can see something of a circle around the downtown area) from the city center averages about 15 miles (East Malvern, Box Hill, etc), and stretches near 25 miles at points.

Using your St Louis example and recognizing that certainly, not all of the Melbourne urban area is serviced by light rail, well over 700 sq mi is 'very well served'.

Re:Fake IDs in the age of the internet by dionidium on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @05:07PM (#14260095)
I'm not convinced this would be worthwhile in the St. Louis suburbs as they exist today. For one, low population densities naturally diminish the value proposition of rail. But, second, the existing auto infrastructure is so good that people would likely still choose to drive.

Yes, I agree that we should strive for higher population densities and that we shouldn't have invested so much in automobile infrastructure, but given that this is where we are, people will make rational decisions.

That's what I mean when I say that we're already too "spread out."

By the way, on the off chance anyone's interested, here's a map of those original streetcar lines:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1W809wsAmB9GR3ZvyII...

Re:Fake IDs in the age of the internet by s0rce on Wednesday May 03, 2017 @02:44PM (#14258799)
I've lived in big and small cities and I am a strong proponent of good public transit, however, other than in big cities that have terrible parking and even worse traffic, cars really are more efficient to get around (except if you want to drink, I don't get drunk much anymore so this isn't a big issue). With cars you can easily go multiple places, close or far, you can transport kids, pets, sick and elderly people with minimal effort.

Obviously for many situations in big cities everyone can't just drive a car or you end up with terrible grid lock. Traffic problems now suggest that keeping the old trams around would probably have been better but around the time they got rid of them cars may have been truly more efficient and people lacked the foresight to save the public transit.