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Re:Jeff Atwood on growing Discourse by gue5t on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:28PM (#14249140)
The tone of your message feels rather condescending, which is frustrating in the face of software usability issues. I think that in general it's a good idea to treat people's complaints as well-founded, even if they don't know exactly how to describe the underlying problem.

I don't think it's the case that I and other users don't know what we want. I do believe that "people engage more" on infinite-scroll-style pages, but I have no reason to believe this makes them happier or more productive. On the other hand, the jerkiness/glitches, breakage of common navigational tools, and slowness of Discourse pages are very annoying.

I should have been more descriptive than simply saying "broken", but I figured I was probably preaching to the choir and so I didn't go into details. In particular, it becomes much harder to use tools like ctrl+F and ctrl+S because the page content is dynamic and after scrolling down a little there's no way to easily tell which bits of the page are still loaded and which aren't. ctrl+F is useful not just for initially locating a key phrase, but also for jumping between bits of the page you've already read for comparison. In a manually-paginated thread this works fine, and I know for sure whether posts are on the same page (where I can use ctrl+F) or different pages (which I can open in separate tabs).

Basically, it becomes very difficult for a user to maintain an accurate mental model of the page content that they're using a browser to interact with. This is quite different from static pagination systems, where scrolling never changes page contents.

The scrollbar really is broken, because users expect its size to show the length of the page, which no longer holds for Discourse or other infinite-scroll pages. The fact that Discourse unloads earlier content makes this even worse, as you can't even remember an old scrollbar position to scroll to something you just saw or scroll halfway to the top to go halfway to the start of the page. Yes, Discourse does provide an alternative way to see some of this information, but user interface changes (having to move from the native scrollbar to the Discourse summary box) are frustrating for users: they break muscle memory and require learning a new interface, since they never work quite the same as the other one.

It makes me no less upset to hear that data was involved in the decision to ignore users' needs. I don't think it's intentional to annoy users, but hearing that there was some level of analysis involved rather than mere accident is upsetting because it shows the slight to be willful. I don't think websites should push worsened usability on their users in the name of driving up engagement metrics.

I think the arguments about automatic vs. manual page turning mostly come down to questions of control and implementation quality: users want to be in control (because the computer is a tool, and tools must be predictable), and it's difficult to avoid bugs when implementing automatic page turning on the Web. I'm not sure exactly why the latter is the case, but I've never seen a system without glitches in the history list, visual glitches, or slowness.

Re:Jeff Atwood on growing Discourse by dvt on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @02:52PM (#14249393)
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. Infinite-scroll pages are pretty well-documented to be shit. Even Facebook crashes or slows down to a crawl if I scroll enough (lol?). There might be a good idea somewhere in there, but current implementations fall short.
Re:Jeff Atwood on growing Discourse by jrochkind1 on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @04:21PM (#14250202)
You know what just occured to me -- Slack is effectively 'inifinite scroll' too (no pagination), of quite a bitof content sometimes... and I don't think people complain much about this aspect of Slack. Wonder how they managed to get it right.
Re:Jeff Atwood on growing Discourse by naiyt on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @05:23PM (#14250763)
Because Slack is a chat system and you typically just care about the most recent messages (which are always displayed). I find scrolling back in Slack to actually be very irritating, when I have to do it. It's slow and the view jumps around whenever the next page loads in. (The UX on the search functionality is also fairly lacking.)
Re:Jeff Atwood on growing Discourse by codinghorror on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @06:03PM (#14251039)
Yeah, people basically don't care at all about chat history. Chat is short-term memory; forgetting is a feature.
Re:Jeff Atwood on growing Discourse by theparanoid on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @04:36PM (#14250329)
They add a nice ("109 comments since April 30th") link to click at the top of the chat window that does exactly what it says. Also there's a custom search box so ctrl+F isn't as broken.
Re:Jeff Atwood on growing Discourse by accountyaccount on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @03:18PM (#14249658)
How else to you handle an infinite thread of media without completely destroying browser performance? Seems to be an foundational internet issue.
Re:Jeff Atwood on growing Discourse by cookiecaper on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @03:06PM (#14249545)
I mostly agree with your post, but I would suggest refraining from accusing others of a "condescending tone" when it's unclear, at least when it's not blatant. I think you're getting downvotes because you seem overly defensive.

He appears to have accepted your statement without hostility and provided a fair reply. Please be careful not to interpret the lack of a pandering tone or excessive niceties as condescension. Remember, project runners hear complaints all day every day, they're never going to be able to make everyone happy, and this is a technical audience.

Re:Jeff Atwood on growing Discourse by mistermann on Tuesday May 02, 2017 @03:58PM (#14249999)
100% agreement from me.