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Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by bigato on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @10:44AM (#14193942)
I dream with the day that humans riding vehicles will be forbidden by law unless the driver would prove the need for human driving. So many deaths would be avoided.
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by ohstopitu on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @10:54AM (#14194049)
have you thought the consequences of that?

No I'm very serious: we are unable to protect smart TVs. Networked smart cars (because let's be real - Google and co. would want to monetize this with Uber-like services, Ads in cars etc.) are a magnitude more likely to be hacked by both the state actors and rogue individuals (altho I don't see why we make this distinction...both are criminal acts).

The worst that can happen if your smart tv is hacked, is that they can listen and maybe watch you in your living room. If your car is hacked, they can probably kill you and hurt others while they are at it. If this happens on a large scale, it's extremely dangerous.

So while I have no problems with self driving in itself (or with Google for that matter of fact), I have a problem with banning human driving cars on the road without a viable (non-intrusive) alternative.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by lodi on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:18AM (#14194267)
We are not "unable" to protect smart TVs. If anyone gave a shit those things would be locked down tighter than a bank vault, but we don't, so they aren't.

But, as evidenced by terrorism paranoia, people do care about their personal safety--perhaps excessively and irrationally so. Security in a networked self-driving car won't be treated as an afterthought, if nothing else because of the massive legal liability.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by eslaught on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @01:31PM (#14195985)
> We are not "unable" to protect smart TVs. If anyone gave a shit those things would be locked down tighter than a bank vault, but we don't, so they aren't.

Every year, every major browser and major OS gets cracked in Pwn2Own. The cost of these zero-days is going up thanks to good security practices like sandboxing in Chrome et al., but they still happen. Every. Single. Year. Think about that for a second.

The fact is, we can't write secure software, especially secure networked software. I can't imagine writing secure software for cars using current best practices---let alone imagine car manufacturers doing that. To solve this, we'll need (in addition to everything we're doing now) something along the lines of Rust to prevent these sorts of bugs. And even then, it's likely that the net effect will be similar to sandboxing: the cost of an attack will go up, but not enough to prevent random individuals (let alone larger organizations) from finding zero-day security vulnerabilities on a regular basis.

It's extremely important not to be cavalier about this security risk. The combination of zero-days and self-driving cars is a scary one.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by pkolaczk on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:47AM (#14194563)
I seriously doubt this. People do care if their car gets stolen. Unfortunately most (if not all) built-in electronic systems for protecting modern cars from being stolen are crap and thieves somehow get around them. Many of these systems (e.g. Keeloq) used "roll your own" insecure cryptography based on security by obscurity, despite availability of much stronger algorithms at that time.
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by Pigo on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:23AM (#14194316)
It sounds like a nightmare to me. God forbid I live in a state that won't allow me the enjoyment of safely operating a vehicle. Maybe they can choose what I'm allowed to eat as well. Please relieve me of all this self-reliance big brother...
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by danans on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @12:26PM (#14195076)
Nobody will prevent you from the enjoyment of driving, but just as it is now, you will probably be required to insure yourself against the externalized risk associated with operating your vehicle, and that risk will be measured relative to your other transportation options.

It's the same reason that you pay relatively high car insurance premiums when you are in your teens and twenties.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by maverick_iceman on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:28AM (#14194372)
We'll manage. Already a lot of critical technology (electric grids, military weapons) is connected to the internet. Civilization hasn't collapsed in spite of that.
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by bigato on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:19AM (#14194271)
Well, nowadays someone can easily hijack a truck and drive it in a crowd of people. And maybe self-driving cars don't need to be connected to the internet?
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by monkmartinez on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @10:55AM (#14194064)
Yeah, because computers never crash right? <pun intended>

I think way too many people are viewing self driving vehicles with rose colored glasses. They underestimate the cost and overestimate the utility to the public.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by fdej on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:17AM (#14194261)
If a computer crashes, you can identify the software or hardware flaw that caused the crash and fix it once and for all.

Improving human driving skills collectively is much more difficult. Even if one driver learns from their own mistake, other drivers and the next generation of drivers will still be just as prone as before to make that mistake. Better education can only do so much anyway, since people often don't think rationally and don't necessarily make safety the number one priority (e.g. drunk driving, trying to get to the destination as quickly as possible, or reckless driving for entertainment purposes).

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by jacquesm on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:48AM (#14194581)
> If a computer crashes, you can identify the software or hardware flaw that caused the crash and fix it once and for all.

Right. Except that 40 years later computers still crash. The more complex a system the harder it becomes to debug and there is no complex software system without bugs. It's like rocks in a field, you'll never get the last one out even if you think you did.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by Sharlin on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @12:06PM (#14194822)
And 100 years later humans still do stupid things in traffic (not to mention they also "crash" - fall asleep, get strokes, whatever). Why does a computer driver have to be flawless when human drivers are anything but?
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by jacquesm on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @12:07PM (#14194839)
It doesn't have to be flawless, just better than humans.

And that's not a simple thing: it will have to be better than humans in every situation, just being better in some but clearly worse in others will still end up looking bad for self driving cars. People don't deal in statistics, they simply look at the situation and say 'that would never happen to a human' and will keep on driving themselves.

So it's a very fine line to roll this sort of thing out, do it too early and you end up turning off your potential early adopters.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by skuzye on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @12:13PM (#14194914)
Regular software, yes, they crash all the time. But I would think these systems would be more safely handled. For example, nuclear energy, air traffic control, bank systems and automated train lines don't crash nearly as often, for example.

Being such an important feature (not crashing) it shouldn't be ignored. I am also skeptical but we have examples of reliable systems so I believe they can work.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by jacquesm on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @12:17PM (#14194957)
> nuclear energy, air traffic control, bank systems and automated train lines don't crash nearly as often, for example.

Bank systems crash with great regularity. Source: worked for a bank, customer of a bank.

Industrial systems and anything related to flight is typically much better from a design point of view than your average bit of firmware. Redundancy is built in from the first day and all failure modes are tested in so much as feasible.

Also, and this is very important, such software is kept as simple as possible to reduce the surface area bugs can hide in.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by notahacker on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @12:44PM (#14195344)
Also, all of these are much simpler problems than fully-autonomous operation of a vehicle on a regular road surrounded by other users, which involves teaching the system how to deal with an enormously long list of edge cases.

I don't envy people tasked with balancing the need for self-driving car software to be able to handle a sufficiently large number of possibilities to consider eliminating the driver with the need for it to have a small surface area and sufficient degree of tractability to be able to minimise bugs.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by monkmartinez on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @12:33PM (#14195188)
Also! Don't forget how expensive this software is... This puts it out of reach for like 97% of the world.
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by SomeStupidPoint on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @12:09PM (#14194860)
We build lots of computing systems that rarely have components crash and almost never (eg, not even once over decades) have the whole system go down. We know how to do it.

It's just not worth the effort in the vast majority of circumstances -- so you get computer crashes.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by jacquesm on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @12:14PM (#14194918)
I know we know how to do it. It's just that the cost-benefit analysis usually falls to 'let it crash' rather than 'let it crash and put a supervisor on top of it'. Besides the fact that most developers don't care too much about their stuff crashing (for instance: one valid excuse for not digging in and solving a problem is 'can't reproduce', whereas those are the worst problems to allow to persist).

In the end it is all economics. But I really would like to see some real life stats on how these self driving cars perform over the longer term in less controlled situations and with an honest accounting of the root cause of any issues. Fat chance that will ever happen but that's the sort of rigor that would get me to switch from driving myself to being driven by a pile of software.

That's the good bit about Google being involved: at least they really 'grok' software and reliability engineering. As opposed to your average car manufacturer where software is a dirty word best outsourced to some contractor.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by Qwertious on Wednesday April 26, 2017 @01:40AM (#14200698)
When was the last time 40-year-old banking or safety-critical software crashed?
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by ghaff on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @02:30PM (#14196602)
There's a flip side to that though. You may have a systematic vulnerability or bug that puts thousands of vehicles at risk. Bruce Schneier has spoken about this issue. An expert lockpick can still only pick one lock at a time. A super-skilled hacker or team can penetrate many devices in one shot.
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by lukas099 on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:09AM (#14194176)
I think his point is that they crash less than human drivers, especially when only a very small percentage of drivers on the road are human.

Other computers are more predictable to computers than humans are, especially with automatic communication of acceleration, lane changes, etc.

Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by bigato on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:16AM (#14194240)
So far the statistics are overwhelmingly in favour of computers doing less mistakes in traffic than humans. Furthermore, if we had mostly self-driving cars, bugs found could be easily deployed to all of the cars, fixing the problems once and for all. While human drivers require cultural changes to drive more safely, and that's way harder to deploy.
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by monkmartinez on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @12:35PM (#14195216)
Yeah, no heartbleed for cars will ever exist! We can just push an update... like mid-trip... I am dumbfounded by the rose colored glasses on this HN regarding self driving.
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by maverick_iceman on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:32AM (#14194413)
It's wrong for the state to declare human driving illegal. I will prefer if we voluntarily adopt self-driving cars because of its huge benefits. I think that's the likely scenario, consider that horse buggies are currently only used as tourist attractions or by isolated communities like the Amish.
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by pkolaczk on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:42AM (#14194517)
Let's ban knives. So many deaths would be avoided.
Re:Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders by bigato on Tuesday April 25, 2017 @11:46AM (#14194556)
If there were so many deaths of innocent people with knives involved as there are deaths with cars involved, and if there were a safer alternative to knives, sure.