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Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by bko on Sunday April 23, 2017 @01:29PM (#14179186)
> In 1994, at the height of the AIDS crisis, in which I lost several friends and a beloved employee to the disease, I started a manufacturing company in Little Elm, about 35 miles north of Dallas, to produce the first-ever automatically retracting syringe to eliminate the risk of nurses contracting HIV through accidental needle sticks. The syringe received rave reviews from nurses, hospital executives and public health officials, a major grant from the National Institutes of Health and robust private investment. But when my partners and I tried to sell it to hospitals, we were told time and time again that even though it was a better product — a lifesaving product — they weren’t able to purchase it. The primary supplier of syringes, which controlled 80 percent of the market, structured an arrangement with a vast network of hospitals that essentially closed our industry to new firms for good.

That last bit sentence me a bit odd. Rather than go into the details of incentives of hospitals and why they would forgo a better alternative, the author just attributes it to "monopoly". If this is true, there is some deeper misalignment with incentives in this industry that won't go away by just removing product providers that control a significant portion of the market. Or something that the author doesn't know about the industry that would make this decision make sense.

Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by Retric on Sunday April 23, 2017 @01:41PM (#14179253)
Monopoly says you buy 100% of your products from us at 50% discount or 99% of your products from us at full price. Now someone is offering a better product but just that one product, so even if it was free your prices go up. See Intel discounts for avoiding AMD, or Microsoft discounts for avoiding Linux, or ...

What do you do?

Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by bko on Sunday April 23, 2017 @02:16PM (#14179491)
Your hypothetical scenario is suggesting that there are no alternative for 99% of the monopoly provider's products and only a better alternative from the 1%? No alternatives for the 99% even with a 50% markup (50 discounted vs 100 full price)? In that case, the buyer is much better off with a 50% discount on 99% of the products since no alternative exists, even at the 100 full price.
Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by maxerickson on Sunday April 23, 2017 @02:20PM (#14179513)
That's the argument being made. The buyer is better off staying with the single supplier. The argument is that this is a breakdown in markets and should be regulated (for instance by breaking the supplier apart).
Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by bko on Sunday April 23, 2017 @03:43PM (#14180051)
If the buyer is better off, and presumably the consumer, who's worse off? The woman who wrote the article that can't compete? She can't force the hospital to go against its interest and purchase her product?
Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by Retric on Sunday April 23, 2017 @04:11PM (#14180202)
Everyone except the supplier is worse off. Remember, a 50% discount on 3x price increase is still a huge price increase.

Further it's all short vs long term pricing. In the short term a company will setup lower prices to kill of competitors, the when there is no competition they raise prices significantly to have a long term war chest. So, on a day to day basis they might be the cheapest option, but their average price over decades is more than their short lived competition.

Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by Qwertious on Monday April 24, 2017 @03:02AM (#14182416)
It's local optima - they get the 50% price dip from buying 100% instead of 99%, because it saves the monopoly money by killing competitors before they spring up, but the lack of competition hurts the consumers because the monopoly has no incentive to drop their prices or really innovate until a competitor with the ability to drop consumer's costs by MORE THAN FIFTY PERCENT comes along.

So even if a competitor with 10% cheaper goods comes along, the consumer sticks with the monopoly 100%, for fear of being dicked by the consumer's 99% prices.

Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by s73ver on Monday April 24, 2017 @02:03AM (#14182232)
That doesn't mean the consumer is better off. The consumer is missing out on better products. The economy is also worse off, because it is missing out on competition which would drive the prices down, and provide jobs.

In an ideal world, such agreements would be illegal, leading to a freer market.

Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by metaphorm on Monday April 24, 2017 @11:46AM (#14185228)
the hospital and its staff are worse off in that they are using products that aren't the best available. the hospital is also worse off in that it is effectively blocked from pursuing innovations in medical device technology because it is obligated to only buy medical devices supplied by the monopolist.
Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by jjoonathan on Sunday April 23, 2017 @01:56PM (#14179354)
Power begets power, and that's just as true in markets as it is in politics. Large players have an entire playbook of dark, gray, and white strategies for getting a leg up on small players. Dumping, bundling, FUD, bribery, regulatory capture, moat-building, economies of scale, network effects, the list goes on.

A sizable fraction of large markets are dominated by monopolies or oligopolies. While it's arguable which factors contribute most, it's an observed fact that this happens, so I'm not sure I'd call any particular instance "a bit odd." Sadly.

Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by mlinksva on Sunday April 23, 2017 @01:49PM (#14179306)
There's a link in the next paragraph to http://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/julyaugust-2010/dirty-... which tells more of the story. Claim is that rule change allowed hospitals to join group purchasing organiations (GPOs) which could get their fees from vendors rather than buyers, essentially creating a system of kickbacks from dominant vendors, which could be large enough for GPOs and thus hospitals and thus patients and thus taxpayers to purchase from the dominant vendors even if their products were not as good as those from medical device startups.

I also found interesting the only two brief mentions of patents in the article. One, a dominant vendor historically using patents to quash startups. Two, the startup the article focuses on has patents that would expire soon (maybe have, the article is from 2010), so other companies would benefit from their innovation (the article mentions a Chinese manufacturer, where the startup eventually took their product).

If the startup's product was really better, why didn't they license their patents to the big vendors? Was the startup simply greedy? The startup's research was largely paid for by taxpayers, why did they need a patent at all? It seems odd to expect inventors will also be good entrepreneurs and litigators: this seems a situation in which grants or prizes without patents would be superior. Alternatively, it points to some market failure in licensing patents that maybe could be solved by some kind of compulsory licensing, eliminating the problem of too greedy startups holding out. How am I wrong?

Finally, with articles like this about the health care industry, I'm always struck by intense focus on bringing innovations to market in the US, and the huge barriers to doing so. I realize that the US is the largest market, but still. Maybe BRIC and other companies should get better at delivering innovations stalled in the US, or maybe the innovations aren't actually so great?

Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by MichaelGG on Sunday April 23, 2017 @01:59PM (#14179378)
The dominant company might not have agreed to decent terms. After all, they own the market so they can starve a startup out. Though you are right, you'd think they would want to sell an improved syringe at huge margins.
Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by burfog on Sunday April 23, 2017 @10:14PM (#14181515)
Go to the nurse unions. Perhaps the next contract could require the syringe.

Go to congress. Lobby. While you may be outspent, that isn't everything. You can also apply pressure via an ad campaign, asking voters to demand that nurses are safe. There is some real emotional appeal potential here.

End result: the dominant company is forced to cave in some way. They can buy the syringe, allow an exception for the syringe, or just lose 100% of their customers.

Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by jjoonathan on Sunday April 23, 2017 @02:06PM (#14179425)
The same bundling dynamics can play out between manufacturer and vendor as play out between vendor and hospital.
Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by ec109685 on Monday April 24, 2017 @12:18AM (#14181968)
Licensing the patent would further monopolize the syringe market. Her community would be better off if they had been permitted to manufacture and sell the product.
Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by vertex-four on Sunday April 23, 2017 @01:44PM (#14179268)
It's quite simple - charge a much higher price than is reasonable per syringe, then offer a significant "discount" (down to reasonable price) to hospitals willing to buy from only you for the next five years.
Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by logn on Sunday April 23, 2017 @01:45PM (#14179275)
These are called group purchasing organizations and a lot has been written about them. Here's an article that also discusses this particular syringe: http://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/julyaugust-2010/dirty-...
Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by IIIIIIIIIIII on Sunday April 23, 2017 @01:58PM (#14179367)
I can speak for a different market in a different country (but I also lived in the US for a decade): IT freelancing in Germany.

I get paid well, but there is something really strange going on: I can't get my contracts directly. I always have to go through a company whose sole business it is to be an intermediate between the (large) company that wants to hire a freelancer and the freelancer. Note that those freelancers are not employed by that company and the relationship is pretty loose. The business pays the intermediary and they pay you, it's a per-project contract.

The large companies won't hire someone directly even though they would save lots of money (and freelancers would get more). Suspicious as you guys are you probably think that well, there must be a logical business reason that it actually really is worth the additional money being spent on the intermediary. For example, finding and bundling lots of freelancer resumes. While that sure is a reason it isn't nearly sufficient for an explanation, not only because they actually do precious little for the money they keep. Also, the legal side can't be the reason either when I look at how the contracts between me and the intermediary are set up.

To give one example from a very large client I worked for for 1.5 years as a freelancer, the reason I was told they go through the intermediary is that it makes their accounting much easier. Since I once worked for that company and experienced the exact same thing I was not surprised: When I worked for them in Silicon Valley I saved the company a lot of money by looking for an apartment myself. I ended up sharing one with somebody else. However, the expensive all-inclusive one-bedroom apartment I had had in Mountain View had the advantage that there only was a single bill (paid by corporate Amex card). The (far cheaper) shared apartment I got instead produced a handful of different invoices (furniture rental, cheques for the rent instead of Amex, etc.), so the company told me they would have preferred to pay the much higher amount from a single source. Which I don't quite understand - I do have some business background and understand accounting, in the computer age, what's the big deal? In the freelancer scenario they said it just works better with their SAP system then having lots of individual contracts. That company also had a big program to "streamline" and centralize their purchasing, which of course means having significantly less firms to deal with as a goal that overrides other concerns.

So, it seems the large businesses prefer to work with other large businesses, no matter how much money they could save. We don't even need to argue whether and/or how much legal and business reasons are valid or not, I think the only thing that matters for the purpose of the discussion is that the effect exists, and that that means "market" is more and more a lie the more of a countries wealth creation is done by big businesses. You don't need to look for actual "monopolies" in the classical sense, those firms quite voluntarily restrict themselves (and again, the bottom line is that it exists, how justifiable it is from the individual firm's POV is a different question, let's assume they know what they are doing and that it makes sense for them).

Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by cylinder on Sunday April 23, 2017 @02:12PM (#14179462)
When large corporations are comfortable in their revenue side (approaching monopoly) they obsess over risk. Every contract poses a risk, including litigation risk. That's probably why. GE is obsessed with outsourcing right now, they even outsourced the mail room. A side effect is this promotes inequality as you can no longer get a job in the mailroom and work your way up to CEO. See the hbr ideacast on this
Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by Pica_soO on Sunday April 23, 2017 @02:52PM (#14179726)
Thank your for the explanation.
Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by VLM on Sunday April 23, 2017 @03:43PM (#14180050)
The human labor cost of processing a contract goes up at a more than linear rate with the size of the company.

Meanwhile, "managing" contracts is almost as expensive as managing employees.

At some point having an accounting dept manage 10K contracts is simply impossible.

Its a labor and control fraud limitation not technological.

Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by IIIIIIIIIIII on Sunday April 23, 2017 @04:06PM (#14180171)
As I said, I think the focus for the points of this discussion is the effect. No doubt everybody acts logically, I didn't suggest that everybody in those companies just lost their mind. This goes long the same lines as "For evil to triumph, all that is required is for good men to respond rationally to incentives." (so here it is the loss of ever more "market" in the "market economy" that we get as an effect, and it's questionable we get it back in economies of scale, judging by the popularity of Dilbert cartoons).
Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by walshemj on Sunday April 23, 2017 @02:16PM (#14179487)
Are there tax reasons as in the UK that make umbrella companies more common?
Re:Want to rescue rural America? Bust monopolies by IIIIIIIIIIII on Sunday April 23, 2017 @02:41PM (#14179651)
Not that I'm aware of in the context that my examples are from. They pay for independent(!) freelancer programmers and consultants, should be the same except for having just a single partner instead of many.