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Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by tinco on Saturday April 22, 2017 @10:38AM (#14172727)
The article does not respond to the claim of the president that windmills kill birds. Do they really in a significant way? Is it worthy of being called an environmental disaster?
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by ptaipale on Saturday April 22, 2017 @10:43AM (#14172753)
I would say it is significant but not disaster. For some sources, look at

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-many-birds-do-w...

AFAIK, in terms of number of birds, house cats kill about 1000 times as many birds as windmills, but cats of course prey on small birds and windmills kill large birds which are far lower in numbers.

Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by Animats on Saturday April 22, 2017 @02:15PM (#14173835)
Altamont Pass, the first big wind farm, is the worst, with row after row of small wind turbines across a narrow pass in a mountain chain. It's a veg-o-matic for migratory birds. Those small turbines are obsolete, and are gradually being replaced with bigger ones.
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by chasing on Saturday April 22, 2017 @10:47AM (#14172775)
http://www.audubon.org/news/will-wind-turbines-ever-be-safe-...

I didn't realize that was such a big issue. Over time, humanity will figure out ways of making wind turbines less of a danger to birds.

In the mean time, I would assume that wind power still remains a net positive for the overall environment versus coal, etc.

Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by tim333 on Saturday April 22, 2017 @10:54AM (#14172821)
>Over time, humanity will figure out ways of making wind turbines less of a danger to birds.

Or the birds will evolve to dislike wind turbines.

Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by toomuchtodo on Saturday April 22, 2017 @01:40PM (#14173633)
I'd assume this is the case, as birds already use the earth's magnetic field for navigation and wind turbines generate a significant magnetic field.
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by maxerickson on Saturday April 22, 2017 @02:37PM (#14173979)
Detecting a small field while flying at 10-15 meters / second (30 miles per hour) might not be possible with whatever they use to detect the wider field.
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by toomuchtodo on Saturday April 22, 2017 @03:02PM (#14174122)
Bookmarked to research.
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by Gibbon1 on Saturday April 22, 2017 @06:05PM (#14175086)
There is a niche market for drones to scare away birds from airports. Would not be a far stretch to use more advanced models to herd birds away from windmills.
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by sgustard on Saturday April 22, 2017 @03:28PM (#14174270)
Just turn the problem around and replace large turbines with mini-turbines attached to the birds themselves. As they fly they charge, um, small batteries that they carry around and then periodically return to dropoff stations. OK I'm still working out some of the kinks.
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by anigbrowl on Saturday April 22, 2017 @04:52PM (#14174708)
I think it's safe to say that the President is not motivated by concern for birds unless he's having chicken for dinner.
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by frik on Saturday April 22, 2017 @11:12AM (#14172903)
Everything has pro and cons. Windmills have just a few cons like don't block the air space (bad for a few birds (but less bad than water power plans for fish), helicopters, planes) and some noise (but that's true for every powerplant technologies except photovoltaic panels).

The good thing windmills are very eco-friendly. Only water/hydro and photovoltaic/sun-energy falls in the very same category.

Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by jimmaswell on Saturday April 22, 2017 @11:26AM (#14172962)
And nuclear is in an even more eco-friendly category than those. This seems accurate: http://energyrealityproject.com/lets-run-the-numbers-nuclear...
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by Klinky on Saturday April 22, 2017 @11:35AM (#14173003)
Isn't the AP-1000 reactor he is citing about to cause the downfall of Westinghouse and Toshiba due to extreme cost overruns?

Upfront cost, liability and waste disposable with nuclear cannot be overlooked.

He also noted:

> A reactor has a 60-year service life.

Fukushima suggests otherwise. Holding on to old reactor designs has resulted in catastrophic failures.

Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by jimmaswell on Saturday April 22, 2017 @12:20PM (#14173208)
From what I've heard, these cost overruns are due to political causes.

Waste disposal is a non issue, and Fukashima was due to terrible planning. It wouldn't be solar's fault if someone put too many solar panels on a weak roof and they fell through.

Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by anarazel on Saturday April 22, 2017 @07:24PM (#14175470)
> Waste disposal is a non issue,

Sorry, but that's just a ridiculous position. You can argue that it's a soluble issue, that the long-term hazard and security are manageable and affordable. You need storage that's going to stable over 10s of thousands of years, that will need to be protected for the foreseeable future (unless you want people to have plenty material for dirty bombs etc). That's not cheap, and the is cost that's very likely going to be externalized from the company running atomic plants, since there's obviously no guarantee said company is going to stick around for long enough.

I am perceiving an uptick in lay-people (more or less) advocating for fission power generation over the last 2-3 years. There are some good arguments. But in nearly all cases I end up being unconvinced because all the problems (waste, complexity, massive delays, security) are just waved away with arguments like "waste disposal is a non-issue", "cost overruns are due to political causes", "new reactor designs make the risks infinitesimally small", .... It's obviously a complex problem and just deflecting away the problems that have bogged nuclear power in a lot of quite different countries, isn't convincing unless you're already convinced.

Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by mambodog on Saturday April 22, 2017 @01:37PM (#14173623)
Humans have shown time and time again we cannot be trusted to consistently do things right, so the likely outcomes of some realistic percentage of 'terrible planning', as you put it, should be part of any comparison of power generation techniques.

The analogy you make to solar ignores that the failure modes of nuclear are much worse than solar.

Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by jimmaswell on Saturday April 22, 2017 @02:14PM (#14173828)
From the page I found, "more Americans have died from installing rooftop solar than have ever died from the construction or use of American nuclear power plants". On average, nuclear is safer. The likelihood of another Fukashima is even lower now that it's happened and been documented.
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by mambodog on Saturday April 22, 2017 @02:37PM (#14173982)
I think you mean 'on average, nuclear is safer than rooftop solar'. How about nuclear vs. large scale solar? Large scale solar + wind? These are more realistic equivalents to nuclear.
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by jimmaswell on Saturday April 22, 2017 @04:08PM (#14174471)
This still seems to just mention rooftop but it's still telling how far US nuclear is below its next runner up, Hydro - .1 to 5 deaths/trillion kWh
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by jimmaswell on Saturday April 22, 2017 @06:45PM (#14175289)
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by anigbrowl on Saturday April 22, 2017 @04:55PM (#14174734)
That's certainly a delicious cherry you picked. I'm pro nuclear myself, but ignoring people's legitimate worries about worst-case scenarios is not a great advocacy strategy.
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by jimmaswell on Saturday April 22, 2017 @06:46PM (#14175293)
It's hardly cherry picking. Look at this chart: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2012/06/10/energys-d...
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by anigbrowl on Monday April 24, 2017 @05:52PM (#14188689)
The externalities of nuclear disasters/errors don't halt at borders, diffuse though they are.
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by rawrRAWR on Saturday April 22, 2017 @03:54PM (#14174402)
This can quickly change, when one terrorist attack happens on a single nuclear plant.

Not so much with wind or solar, though ;)

Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by jimmaswell on Saturday April 22, 2017 @04:14PM (#14174492)
From what I'm seeing in this PDF, it's not that much of a concern. http://www.iaea.org/inis/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Publ...
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by rawrRAWR on Saturday April 22, 2017 @03:53PM (#14174398)
Waste disposal is an issue for millions of years to come.
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by ghaff on Saturday April 22, 2017 @11:27AM (#14172970)
>water/hydro

As you suggest in your prior sentence, hydro is very disruptive environmentally in some cases. The Glen Canyon Dam (and the once proposed dams in the Grand Canyon) are particular cases in point. There's a general trend toward removing old dams in New England in part because of their environmental impact. Of course, small scale hydro like microturbines is far less disruptive but it generates far less power.

Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by heisenbit on Saturday April 22, 2017 @11:53AM (#14173081)
Don't count hydro out as part of the energy mix. It can complement PV as a reasonably efficient energy store.
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by jnordwick on Saturday April 22, 2017 @12:45PM (#14173341)
Dams are usually ecological disasters. The Hetch Hetchy Valley was dammed up and it destroyed a natural resource on par with Yosemite. People have been trying to remove it for years, but the San Francisco residents refuse to let it go since it supplies such a large amount of power to them.
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by djrogers on Sunday April 23, 2017 @08:33AM (#14177919)
Not to mention it supplies their water
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by wnevets on Saturday April 22, 2017 @12:27PM (#14173242)
It's a disingenuous position for trump to take in the first place.
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by jonathansizz on Saturday April 22, 2017 @12:45PM (#14173342)
Looking at the statistics, I'm not sure that wind turbines are any worse than man-made structures generally (or other human-caused threats, including other types of power plants).

https://www.fws.gov/birds/bird-enthusiasts/threats-to-birds....

Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by ThomPete on Saturday April 22, 2017 @10:53AM (#14172813)
Not just kill birds, they are noisy too.
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by Faaak on Saturday April 22, 2017 @11:26AM (#14172961)
Less and less with new gearboxes
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by theghostofjr on Saturday April 22, 2017 @03:41PM (#14174334)
Of course, Trump has an offshore wind array in his view from his hold course in Aberdeen. So he may have ulterior motives than bird preservation here.
Re:The U.S. wind industry now employs more than 100K people by rsynnott on Saturday April 22, 2017 @10:34PM (#14176153)
I assume because Trump was just making up nonsense, as per normal.

> About 599 million birds are killed annually in the U.S. when they fly into windows, trailing only loss of habitat and cats as the top causes of bird deaths, according to the National Audubon Society. Wind turbines account for about 234,000.