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Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by jrockway on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @11:35AM (#1417264)
Yes, this is true, the dynamic language communities have compensated for the lack of a type system with explicit type checks (or type constraints) and lots of testing. But it's still nice to have a real type system (and I don't mean C or C++ or Java; those languages also have no type system). When I compile a Haskell project successfully, I have a reasonable belief that it's going to run to completion and at least produce some sort of result. The same is not true of Perl, even with lots of tests, my programs almost always die in the middle (during development) where a runtime type check or assertion fails.

The reality of programming is that all functions and variables have types. If you add 42 to "hello world", you get garbage. In dynamically typed languages, you keep the types in your mind -- you know that the variable you are adding 42 is a number. In statically typed languages, you tell the compiler. The second way lets the computer do some of the work for you (ensuring that if you use the variable like a string, your program won't compile), the first way requires you to do everything. If you aren't careful, you get the wrong answer or a runtime error.

I think dynamic typing was a nice way for the programming language community to realize that C's type system sucked, but it isn't the ultimate answer, it's just a stopgap. It's also good that people realized they needed to test their code automatically; but that works even better with statically-typed languages.

Anyway, I am not going to give up Perl anytime soon, but I secretly wish it wasn't dynamically-typed.

Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by digitallogic on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @12:55PM (#1417518)
"In dynamically typed languages, you keep the types in your mind"

That's one way, or you could write clear unambiguous code such that the types are reasonably self evident.

Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by jrockway on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @03:04PM (#1417928)
In that case, why not let the computer tell you whether or not the types are reasonably self-evident? That's what static typing is.

(Remember, don't mash up "Java and C++" with "static typing". Java and C++ are not worth mentioning when discussing type systems; they have type systems that get in the way and make it harder to code.)

Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by edanm on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @05:22PM (#1418332)
I've only every programmed in Java/C++, and dynamic languages, so I don't know what you mean.

Do you know of any good resource to read up about a better type system and its benefits, but without having to learn a whole new language? (I don't have time to learn a new language, but this sounds important enough to read up on).

Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by Periodic on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @05:55PM (#1418430)
A lot of the fun-to-program statically typed languages use type inference to determine types automatically. In these languages, as long as you make your types reasonably clear the compiler can go through and do type checking for you without you ever having to explicitly type a single expression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_inference

Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by edanm on Friday June 11, 2010 @09:05AM (#1423695)
The big problem with statically typed languages isn't having to say "int" constantly. It's having to decide on a type hierarchy.

What I mean is, when I write a function to do something with files, I don't want to have to decide whether I'm going to accept a "FILE" class or not. This isn't laziness: it's realizing that I will one day want to use a different class which looks like a file, but isn't part of the "file" hierarchy.

This situation comes up far more often than one might think, and it saves a lot of headaches up-front (designing complicated hierarchies to prevent future use-cases you'll want).

From what I've read, Type inference doesn't help with that. (But I haven't read much, so I could be wrong).

Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by dlsspy on Monday June 14, 2010 @05:14AM (#1429230)
You can't learn this stuff by reading about it, you have to experience it. Some of your counter-arguments are outright confusing to those who have programmed in languages with type inference (hint: they don't necessarily have classes).

Experience may help you change your mind. Reading papers and advocacy from people who've used it should provide limited influence.

As an aside, there are solutions to programming problems I would've never come up with if it weren't for experience in other programming languages, so I read "don't have time to learn a new programming language" as "don't have time because I haven't learned a new programming language."

Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by jcsiracusa on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @12:33PM (#1417439)
Is running to completion and producing an incorrect result really preferable to dying in the middle of execution due to a runtime check or assertion? Either your program works or it doesn't.
Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by digitallogic on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @12:53PM (#1417511)
Depends on the context of the application.

Social networking web sites? Yes. Video games? Definitely.

Business applications (or anything dealing w/money)? You sure had better fail and roll back any transactions.

But I think your point stands when you consider that the cases where it's ok to keep going after something wrong happens are the exception, and not the rule (most software is automating boring business practices).

Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by jrockway on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @12:37PM (#1417452)
Yes.
Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by gnaritas on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @12:39PM (#1417460)
No. Failure is failure.
Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by paulbaumgart on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @01:39PM (#1417662)
With dynamically typed languages and implicit variable declarations, I find the most common runtime errors are, in descending order of frequency:

  * Something returned null when I assumed it would return a value/object.
  * I used the wrong variable.
  * I made a typo in an assignment that implicitly created an unused variable
    (this is easy to catch with static analysis even in dynamically typed
    languages, admittedly).
The first one is by far the most common.

I'm not particularly experienced with Haskell, but my understanding is that the static typing will usually catch the second one and that more advanced static analysis (more advanced than type checking) can easily catch the third one.

Most important, though, is the case of the first and most common error. Here, the language will very explicitly require you to handle the case that "Nothing" will potentially be returned.

So, most of the sorts of errors that would have caused failed execution in a dynamically typed language will be caught at compile time. This means that when the program runs, it will usually be closer to being correct than it would be if it were written in a dynamically typed language and failed in the middle of execution.

Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by gnaritas on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @03:02PM (#1417921)
Not all dynamic languages implicitly declare variables, I'm a Smalltalker and this just isn't a problem. If I make a typo and try to save it, it'll tell me this variable isn't declared and ask me how I'd like to declare it.

Using the wrong variable, I just never seem to have that problem as well named variables make the code just look wrong when it happens and secondly because I'm writing the code while the code is running in a live environment. I see immediately when it does work because the first thing I do is execute it on a live object to make sure it does what it's supposed to do. This handles the null issue as well. Incremental live development just side steps about all of these issues, and is something static languages just don't let me do.

More often than not, I've found type systems to prevent me from expressing what I want to express even when the code would work perfectly fine simply because polymorphism isn't granular enough. In dynamic type systems, polymorphism is based on method signature alone and is not bound to any kind of class/interface/type class which gives me the most flexibility in expressing myself. I prefer that flexibility and incremental live development over any gain any static type system might give me.

Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by jrockway on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @03:12PM (#1417956)
Most important, though, is the case of the first and most common error. Here, the language will very explicitly require you to handle the case that "Nothing" will potentially be returned.

Well, actually no. Consider:

    divide :: Int -> Int -> Maybe Int
    divide x 0 = Nothing
    divide x y = Just $ x / y

    printResult :: Maybe Int -> IO ()
    printResult (Just x) = print x
Now, run:

    main = do
      putStr "Type a number: "
      x <- readLn
      divide 42 x >>= printResult
This will still die if you type 0, because there is no pattern to match the Nothing case. Sure, you can run Catch to see that you made a mistake, but the compiler doesn't care. (At least you can run Catch to determine that you messed up, though. If you are using Java or Ruby or something, you are just hosed.)

Anyway, my usual error is not null or using the wrong variable or typoing something. It's usually failing type checks because I forgot a coercion, or just plain wrong code. Exceptions prevent null returns, and I am lucky with respect to the other two.

Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by Periodic on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @06:12PM (#1418473)
It needs to be fixed up a bit. You can somewhat resolve this issue by compiling with -Wall, at which point it will warn you that your pattern matching is non-exhaustive.

    import System.IO

    divide :: Int -> Int -> Maybe Int
    divide x 0 = Nothing
    divide x y = Just $ x `div` y

    printResult :: Maybe Int -> IO ()
    printResult (Just x) = print x

    main = do
        putStr "Type a number: "
        hFlush stdout
        x <- readLn
        printResult $ divide 42 x
Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by paulbaumgart on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @03:43PM (#1418026)
Interesting. I assumed Haskell would at least warn you. But it's probably only a matter of time before Catch is built in to the compiler, at least as an option.
Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by kragen on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @08:45PM (#1418815)
OCaml does warn you:

    : kragen@inexorable:~/mail ; ocaml
            Objective Caml version 3.10.2

    # let divide x = function 0 -> None | y -> Some (x / y) ;;
    val divide : int -> int -> int option = <fun>
    # let printResult = function Some x -> print_int x ;;  
    Warning P: this pattern-matching is not exhaustive.
    Here is an example of a value that is not matched:
    None
    val printResult : int option -> unit = <fun>
    # printResult (divide 9 3) ;;
    3- : unit = ()
    # printResult (divide 10 0) ;;
    Exception: Match_failure ("", 1, 18).
    #
Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by sid0 on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @02:30PM (#1417814)
I agree. One of the biggest benefits of a proper type system (and by saying "proper" I immediately exclude C and Java, so don't even bother mentioning them) is that you get clean semantics for both nullable and non-nullable types. Hoare called null a billion-dollar mistake, and I completely agree.
Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by jrockway on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @03:14PM (#1417958)
and by saying "proper" I immediately exclude C and Java, so don't even bother mentioning them

If there was a "jrockway award for explaining type systems", this statement would qualify you for one. I am glad I'm not the only person that thinks this :)

Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by jrockway on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @03:03PM (#1417923)
An incorrect answer gives me feedback on why my thought process was wrong. A program that dies in the middle just means my typing is not so good.

Remember, most of your time is spent with a broken program rather than with a working program. Once it works, you don't think about it anymore. Getting to that working state is what programming is.

Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by gnaritas on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @03:33PM (#1418000)
Good dynamic systems don't just die, they halt on the error and fix them on the fly in the debugger. Most of my time is spent on a working program, not on a broken one.
Re:Dynamic typing and anti-lock brakes by chromatic on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @03:11PM (#1417953)
I think dynamic typing was a nice way for the programming language community to realize that C's type system sucked....

Dynamic typing is an answer to the problem that getting types right in a program is as difficult as getting anything else right in a program, especially given the limitations of type systems. I can write a trivial Haskell program which will not halt (due to trivial mathematical properties of negative numbers) but which the type checker will allow by allowing the compiler to infer the wrong type.