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Re:UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold... by smcl on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @08:26AM (#14138236)
Why vote Lib Dem? If the last election turned out slightly differently and the Conservatives still needed the coalition, I bet they'd be out happily singing the praises of Brexit to us all, and walking back their campaign promises. They previously always had a "were not like Labour/Con" cred, but the coalition showed that this simply is not true
Re:UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold... by snowwolf on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @09:17AM (#14138539)
I really don't get this line of thinking at all. In any coalition compromises are required. Yes the Lib Dems made a campaign promise not to increase tuition fees. But (and this is important), they DID NOT WIN the general election so therefore did not have a strong mandate for those promises. Somehow the Lib Dems get all the blame for increased tuition fees as if it was their idea. The blame for that should lie squarely with the Tories. They really pushed for it and were willing to compromise in other areas important to the Lib Dems to achieve it.
Re:UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold... by smcl on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @01:29PM (#14140872)
They campaigned on a promise then bailed on it and the electorate punished them. If you don't get this line of thinking then I don't know what to tell you.
Re:UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold... by snowwolf on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @04:15PM (#14142476)
Firstly it wasn't their only campaign promise. Secondly they didn't win so had no mandate. Thirdly it was a coalition and the Tories had a slightly stronger mandate. Finally they had to compromise on some things to achieve other arguably more important goals. This is how politics works. If you don't get this then I don't know what to tell you.
Re:UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold... by Angostura on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @09:09AM (#14138491)
> but the coalition showed that this simply is not true

Actually, their behaviour in the coalition was the fact or that made me respect the LibDems tremendously. In my opinion they actually set aside party advantage in order to give the UK a working government. I believe that without their moderating influence the last government would have been a lot worse - hats off to them. And I speak as a (probably former) Labour voter.

Re:UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold... by pjc50 on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @10:00AM (#14138848)
> set aside party advantage in order to give the UK a working government

Working government is overrated; Belgium took over a year to form a government and therefore ended up handling the financial crisis slightly better as there was no opportunity to do anything dramatically stupid.

The Lib Dems should have fought a lot harder and longer before agreeing to that coalition.

Re:UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold... by pjc50 on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @09:59AM (#14138833)
I'm afraid this is a "but her emails!" position. I'm not a fan of the way the Lib Dems handled the tuition fees fiasco - straightforward breach of promise - but they seem to be the only remaining viable anti-brexit option in England.
Re:UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold... by barrkel on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @08:29AM (#14138255)
Brexit is more important than college fees.
Re:UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold... by Silhouette on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @01:04PM (#14140570)
Brexit is more important than college fees.

Is it, really?

People say things like this a lot at the moment, but the objective reality is that for a lot of graduates in the current tuition fees and student loans system, they are leaving university already tens of thousands of pounds in debt.

Earning anything resembling a "normal" graduate salary -- which of course isn't guaranteed these days -- they will then be making repayments that effectively increase their marginal income tax rate by a whopping 9%.

And with the current rate of inflation and the 3% extra interest that gets added on top, most of those repayments will actually just be servicing interest.

Bottom line: a young person graduating this year will have huge debts at the start of their career, they could be facing an extra tax-like burden for most of their working lives, and they're entering a workforce that demands more and offers less than any previous generation in recent history has faced. And that's before you even consider things like the housing market or the likelihood of that generation receiving a useful state pension by the time they retire.

How is anything related to Brexit, even in the most negative possible outcome, going to have anywhere close to that effect on the life of a young person who graduates this year?

Re:UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold... by barrkel on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @02:17PM (#14141372)
It is. Nationalism is on the march, and with it war won't be far away. We're looking at a disintegration of the Western order and the rise of China and a threat from Russia, and a self-interested USA. I don't think the individual countries of Western Europe have a hope standing alone; they will have their arms twisted and they'll toe someone else's line, like it or not, if they can't band together.
Re:UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold... by Silhouette on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @03:43PM (#14142209)
I agree that certain forms of nationalism and an aggressive Russia are real and significant concerns, but I don't see how Brexit is going to make much difference to either of them.

There were always unpleasant people using nationalism as cover for doing unpleasant things, even though the current sentiment in many western countries has brought them a higher profile. They're still a relatively small minority, they've never amounted to much before, and I don't see them achieving much in the long term either, even if they cause nasty irritation for a while. More generally, broader nationalist sentiment might lead to a more isolationist foreign policy for a while, with the pros and cons that brings, but talk of that getting us into a war any time in the near future seems hyperbolic.

Russian aggression in Eastern Europe seems a greater and more urgent threat in terms of geopolitical stability, but then NATO seems a more likely forum to moderate that influence than the EU. Given that even NATO has had a limited effect on Putin so far, I don't see the UK's membership or otherwise of the EU making much difference to anything in this respect. With the US not knowing what its foreign policy is from one day to the next under Trump and with many of the other relatively powerful European nations systematically underinvesting in defence for years, I think there are much more influential factors that would need to change here before Brexit started to have much relevance in this context.

Meanwhile, with the tuition fees and student loans system we now have and with current inflation rates, we're talking about crippling around half of a whole generation economically, possibly for their entire lives. I'm already somewhat concerned that inequality and generational conflict could lead to widespread disorder within the next few years here at home, regardless of anything going on abroad. The effects of Brexit surely wouldn't help with that, but I don't believe any outcome in relation to Brexit (including completely stopping it) would fix these deep problems in our own society or their long term consequences either.

Re:UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold... by tehwalrus on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @09:24AM (#14138584)
You don't understand the Lib Dems if you think we'd have voted for Brexit. Especially under Clegg.
Re:UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold... by smcl on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @01:18PM (#14140742)
I originally posted a smartass one-liner response ("I don't think even the Lib Dems understand the Lib Dems") but deleted it as it was not constructive or particularly fair on you. I think that it is worth explaining what I meant however.

I genuinely admire that you are motivated enough to get involved with UK politics - and I wish you all the best. You've no idea the disappointment I had in the LDs though - I cheered them on in a handful of successive elections (they ousted the Tories in my home constituency West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine in '97 much to my family's delight) and in the run-in to 2010 was convinced they could rise up to challenge Labour and the Conservatives.

And then to join the Tories - it just boggles the mind, I cannot fathom how anyone didn't think "won't this completely kill us off?". For one this basically lost them the foothold they had Scotland (my home constituency was lost to the SNP, for example) and whatever was left of the younger supporters who weren't turned off by the association with the Conservatives were then burned by the Tuition Fee saga in England.

We'll never know what would have happened with Brexit if the Lib Dems were still in the coalition. But they completely capitulated on a single extremely simple promise in 2010. Now I (a previous Lib Dem voter) have no reason to believe they wouldn't do the exact same again.

But overall, yeah you are right. I do not understand the Lib Dems. And it fucking saddens me.

Re:UK Prime Minister Theresa May announces intention to hold... by tehwalrus on Tuesday April 18, 2017 @05:47PM (#14143260)
We're nerds. I've met very few Lib dems who aren't nerds. And some of us are nerds about transport, and some of us are nerds about budgets, and so on. That is who we are above all else. We're ravenclaws. (With some hufflepuffs). We write long complex policies with painstaking research only to have the other parties nick them, and then say "well at least the clever thing I designed is happening even if I don't get the credit".

Now, one thing we did with the coalition was do exactly what we'd been saying before the election. It wasn't what the media reported, but it is what we said. Which was that we'd consider coalition with any party that got the most votes and the most seats. Which was the Tories.

Now, you should also remember that the Lib Dems have a shared history with both the conservative and labour parties. The SDP may be much more recent, but the flight of the libertarians in the 1920s and 30s (along with the telegraph newspaper) lost us what was an originally liberal idea: the market. Suddenly we were no longer the party of the market. And the Tories were a mixture of market purists, capitalists and moral conservatives (political theists). They've purged most of the moral conservatives now, and we're just left with the capitalists (the libertarians forgot all about the social conscience of Adam Smith without the rest of the Liberal party to remind them.)

Now, the Liberals who were left in the 40s and onwards were several things. Social liberal, internationalist, a little bit CND, etc. Radicals. Protestors.

Then we got this influx from Labour in the 80s, the right wing of the Labour Party, the SDP. Vince Cable. Shirley Williams. We grew up and became less of a protest party and more professional. We started winning by-elections and having more than 6 seats.

It is important to distinguish us from a European Liberal (centre-right) party. It is also important to remember that we're internationalists. And it is important to remember that we're not too different from a European Liberal party; we definitely believe in free trade across borders.

So, the European project is a part of British Liberalism which cuts across both internationalism and market freedoms. It's in the political DNA of nearly all Lib Dems.

Brexit is one of the few things we pretty much all agree on (that it's a terrible catastrophe).

I hope that helps you understand us a bit better.