I use PHP quite a bit outside of the web.

I think tpetry was pointing out the difference between a language and a framework built on that language.

(Replace language with whatever you think it is, it's still a subset just like Ruby on Rails is a subset of Ruby)

Sure you could separate PHP the language from PHP the processing instruction and PHP the standard lib. But PHP calls itself a "hypertext preprocessor" (it's in the name) and PHP's own intro (literally on page 1, sentence 1, cf. [1]) advertises web templating as its distinguishing feature. So I think it's fair to compare PHP against other HTML generators.

[1]: http://php.net/manual/en/intro-whatis.php

So, regarding the parent, I was pointing to PHP being more of a language and less of a "web framework" which I don't believe you address at all. As for web templating and such

> PHP (recursive acronym for PHP: Hypertext Preprocessor) is a widely-used open source general-purpose scripting language that is especially suited for web development and can be embedded into HTML.

I would focus on the core statement of the sentence which is "is a widely-used open source general-purpose scripting language". Comparing PHP to other HTML generators (re re re? parent: Django, Jinja, Rails) leaves out the entire concept of "general-purpose scripting language" and only focuses on "embedded into HTML" which while a main feature isn't the whole of it.

And I'm pointing out that treating PHP as a framework is not a "flaw in argumentation". The default installation of PHP gives you a setup that parses HTTP requests and returns HTTP responses, and provides a bunch of web-centric functionality in between. ie. it's a web framework, albeit not a very good one.

> The default installation of PHP gives you a setup that parses HTTP requests and returns HTTP responses

Correct me if I am wrong, but so does Node, Ruby, Python, etc...

Sure it was built for the web, in simpler times, but everything has to start somewhere. Now days, PHP is a completely different beast.

> Just not a very good one.

An opinion if fine, but it seems like you are deriving this opinion from old experiences (or maybe the old PHP hate bandwagon)

> Correct me if I am wrong, but so does Node, Ruby, Python, etc.

I think Node is also a framework, although there seems to be some controversy about this[1]. Ruby and Python give you standard libraries from which you can build a web server or templating engine or whatever, but it would be weird to say that made them Web Frameworks. Maybe things have changed, but last I knew PHP had a command line switch that tells it to not act like a web framework, because that is its default mode of operation. But you're right that it's been a few years.

I don't think I'm jumping on a hate bandwagon, but I am succumbing to someone-is-wrong-on-the-internet syndrome, which I know to be a mistake.

Although I can't resist asking - are you saying PHP is a good web framework? How does that fit with the idea that PHP is not a web framework?

[1] https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/2991...

> I think Node is also a framework

I think we have different definitions of frameworks. So no point in arguing over that.

> Maybe things have changed, but last I knew PHP had a command line switch that tells it to not act like a web framework

I honestly don't even know about a command line switch. I just write my script and execute it with the CLI (php test.php)

> I am succumbing to someone-is-wrong-on-the-internet syndrome

Please tell me this has a name

> Although I can't resist asking - are you saying PHP is a good web framework? How does that fit with the idea that PHP is not a web framework?

Not sure you exact intent, but as far as PHP being a good language to write a web application in, sure, it can be. IMO, it depends on the application and use of the application.