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Re:Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam by im_down_w_otp on Saturday April 01, 2017 @04:03PM (#14013872)
So was Erlang. The language, the runtime, and the standard library were all purpose-built together to solve a real world problem... to build fault-tolerant, distributed network applications.

Which makes Go's rapid popularity as a language for solving the same problem even more peculiar. Especially since Go's surrounding tracing, debugging, and online code swapping facilities are so much worse.

I'm sure some component of that is Ericsson's complete lack of interest in evangelism and Erlang Solution's apparent lack of capability to effectively evangelize, but it still seems like Go isn't so much filling a void as it is being better at attracting an ecosystem that delights in reinventing a particular set of wheels.

Java was very much the same way for a very long time.

Re:Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam by doktrin on Saturday April 01, 2017 @04:43PM (#14014071)
> So was Erlang. The language, the runtime, and the standard library were all purpose-built together to solve a real world problem... to build fault-tolerant, distributed network applications.

I'm probably outing myself as the lord regent of all impostor plebs, but Erlang is not IMO an approachable language regardless of its origins. Put differently : it looks completely nuts. I'm sure there's a method to the madness, but comparing it to Golang feels misguided (at least, from the perspective of awful programmers like myself)

Re:Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam by im_down_w_otp on Saturday April 01, 2017 @04:51PM (#14014100)
Erlang is a very simple language. It doesn't look like C, but it has a very basic syntax and a narrow set of core constructs.

Elixir by comparison is significantly more complicated, but the fact that it looks tacitly like Ruby is apparently very attractive.

I suspect I could sit down with you for an hour and remove all the weirdest seeming bits which feel alien. Such that the rest of it would just feel like any other programming language, and you'd be able to immediately start dissecting and understanding other people's code.

Part of the problem with Erlang (again an evangelism problem) is that there's not much in the way of attractive and we'll structured on-boarding documentation. It's mostly really simple. It's just that the Erlang docs seem to go to great lengths to obfuscate that fact. In large part because they don't do anything to intentionally build "background schema" with the reader by drawing comparisons to similar things they're probably already familiar with in other ecosystems.

Re:Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam by sanderjd on Saturday April 01, 2017 @05:21PM (#14014252)
I don't think looking like Ruby is at all what makes people like Elixir. Maybe it has attracted a bunch of people to look at it because of that, but I don't think that's why anyone stays (because anyone who cares about that quickly realizes that it isn't actually very much like Ruby at all). I agree that it's a more complex language (though I wouldn't say "significantly", but that's very subjective), but it doesn't really "feel" that way to me because its design choices seem more consistent. But on top of that, it has really good tooling, which I always found to be a major pain point in getting started with Erlang.
Re:Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam by ZephyrP on Sunday April 02, 2017 @04:20AM (#14016398)
Like you, I am also down with OTP (yeah u kno me) and thats why I have to come to you with a harsh message of love: You've been bamboozled.

    {ok, u_no_me, {down_with, init, [State, Mod, OtherMod, Pid, SomeImportantRefIforget]}, {permanent, brutal_kill, 10000, 9999, 100000, 5, worker}
Is not a genius language construct of a faraway Alien race. It's not elite. It's not even Swedish. It's just limited and unclear. (there are even more unclear examples in the annals of Erlang, but everyone is familiar with consulting and reconsulting the child specification documentation)

There are just so many things that make dealing with OTP nicer in Elixir. This is to say nothing of the meta-patterns that Elixir has driven home: Agents, Tasks, the actual supervisor/worker interfaces themselves. You could go on here.

I haven't even gotten to macros -- Have you ever had to make your own behavior, say for an acceptor/worker pool of some variety (presumably non-tcp, otherwise just ranch that out). Making your own behavior (what armstrong himself called "really advanced") is the easy part here. You've got to create a system where you pass around the TRUE module that holds the correct `handle_call/cast/info` implementation back and forth through the true module and the OTP state parameter.

This whole pattern (which comes with very real runtime costs) just doesn't even exist in Elixir. You just create a macro. A macro that sets all of this up at build time. No complex supervisor hierarchies where you need to constantly inspect each and every message, no custom behaviors, etc. You just have a mostly sane way of sharing software logic to begin with.

You can work up really clever solutions with parse_transforms, even standard "-define", but today Elixir has a totally brilliant solution to this problem and many more classes of problems.

This isn't to say there an't blindspots (beyond "wrap proc_lib/inets/other hated library"). There's minor issues here and there. Process registry naming can get confusing, especially operating between Erlang+Elixir supervision trees. Low-level details aren't nearly as well-publicized in Elixir either. There are even big issues, like the Elixir community leaning more "I'm playing around with Elixir because Phoenix is Webscale" than the grizzled realtime adtech/gambling/finance gurus and so if you want help with OTP platform/VM details, you going to have a harder time.

I first tried Elixir in v0.08. & function capture syntax had just been standardized. I suspect that like me, you tried it then, when it wasn't a fully-featured alternative yet. Things have changed and Jose Valim has a vision for the future of Erlang that I think you'd be foolish not to pay attention to.

Re:Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam by im_down_w_otp on Sunday April 02, 2017 @04:44AM (#14016446)
I do pay attention to it. I actually host an Elixir meetup out of my own pocket... going on 2 years now. I'm ~$3000 into a labor of love helping people learn and be exposed to Elixir's various features and help them make sense of its Erlang underpinnings.

Having used both Erlang and Elixir "in anger" there are a whole bunch of things that bug me about Erlang. There are a whole bunch of things that bug me about Elixir too. I'm not sure what any of that has to do with what I said. Elixir is a more complicated and larger language than Erlang.

It has structs (which are weirdly implemented as maps instead of records). It has type-classes/traits by way of "protocols" (which are a whole different layer of metaprogramming that could be replaced with behaviours and data-structure definition convention or dialyzer type-spec'ing). It has the pipe operator (which strangely elides the first argument in a function such that map/2 becomes map/1 when written... why no placeholder sigil). It has Agents (which are something which is confusing to have in the standard library as its a specific implementation of a gen_server which acts as a KV-store which will be really, really prone to data races). It has a fair bit of metaprogramming to be aware of in terms of macros and hooks that trigger at code loading/import time (which forces one to need to be a lot more aware of the inner details of 3rd party libraries being used). It eventually devolves into requiring knowledge of Erlang when attempting to do anything regarding debugging, tracing, or distribution related.

Elixir is a great language, and it has a lot of neat features, and I love teaching it to people and being increasingly critical of Erlang based on advancements in usability and community engagement/feedback that I see happening around Elixir. But I don't really need to be proselytized to about it.

Re:Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam by mahyarm on Saturday April 01, 2017 @04:27PM (#14014002)
Golang is simpler java, and that is it's target. It even has the same perf profile as java. Erlang does have a worse perf profile.
Re:Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam by fpoling on Sunday April 02, 2017 @05:06AM (#14016498)
Golang performance profile is very different from Java. It's speed is closer to C++, garbage collection optimized for latency, not bandwidth, very low startup time comparable with typical native code.
Re:Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam by Jweb_Guru on Sunday April 02, 2017 @11:47AM (#14017557)
You can actually get a performance profile very much like Go's out of Java...

* Inasmuch as you can make a blanket statement like this about a language, Go's speed is very much comparable to Java's.

* Java has a huge number of garbage collectors available. You're just talking about the default, but there are extremely low-latency GCs.

* Java has a bunch of ahead-of-time compilers; thanks to Android this might be the most common deployment of Java.

Even green threads were tried (and sensibly abandoned) in Java before.

I think people may not be aware of all the options available in the Java ecosystem, but other than sized types, which are theoretically coming to Java 10, there isn't much performance-wise that Go does and Java doesn't.

Re:Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam by mahyarm on Sunday April 02, 2017 @05:26PM (#14019125)
Just because a language is compiled doesn't mean it will approach C++ speeds. The GC itself is a hard limit on perf. What I've seen in practice:

1x time: C

1.5x time: C++ (with smart pointers)

~2x time: Objective-C (almost everything is a heap smart pointer)

3x time: Java, Golang (optimized GC languages)

Re:Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam by im_down_w_otp on Saturday April 01, 2017 @04:42PM (#14014067)
Yes Erlang does, strictly for execution throughput, but less so for concurrency handling. That is also a solveable problem. It just so happens to be a problem neither Ericsson nor ESL have been interested in solving.
Re:Tor in a safer language: Network team update from Amsterdam by bostik on Sunday April 02, 2017 @10:10AM (#14017219)
Remember, Erlang was first and foremost developed as a programming language (and runtime) to run Ericsson's phone switches.

Session establishment for PSTN can be relatively expensive (much in the way of TLS handshakes), so concurrency and shared-nothing memory model together allowed for real-time streaming to keep on working no matter what else happened. The three main features of a PSTN switch are, after all:

1. Reliable call switching

2. Reliable real-time throughput

3. Reliable billing and accounting data generation

We don't think much of throughput these days, when any home office switch has gigabit ports and 40Gb+ backplane. As far as I know, maximising throughput bandwidth was not a primary consideration with Erlang. Reliable real-time streaming is much more about guaranteed latency - and incidentally, optimising between latency and throughput tends to be all about tradeoffs.