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Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by acover on Friday March 31, 2017 @04:17AM (#14001966)
> Strong Scientism: Of all the knowledge we have, scientific knowledge is the only “real knowledge.”

Stupid question. What is an example of a hypothesis that is not falsifiable by experiment but should still be considered "knowledge"?

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by vanderZwan on Friday March 31, 2017 @04:54AM (#14002093)
This is not an answer to your exact question, but when people say "falsifiable" they usually mean something much more rigorous than what is possible within qualitative research[0] (and I'm not criticising qualitative research here), yet insights can still be gained from it.

I switched from physics to art to (ultimately) design and programming. You have no idea how much ignorance many physicists have of research that isn't easily quantifiable and turned into predictive formulas. I had to go through a period of growing more "aware" of my tunnel-vision myself. As a result, flat-out rejection of entire fields of research, claiming they do not create "real" knowledge is common.

On the flipside there's people trying to apply physics-style reductionism to problems that simply don't fit, because human societies aren't built up of spherical frictionless humans in a vacuum[1].

Example: I did my master thesis of interaction design on gesture interfaces (the waving-hands-in-the-air kind, not the touchscreen kind), a topic that has been researched over forty years but has yet to really break through. One paper I read mentioned that on average the right index finger was raised one-point-zero-something times more often than the left. Sample size twenty or so. I still don't know how that is supposed to help me design better interfaces; right-handedness being the norm is a known, and I cannot conclude anything from these numbers. But hey, it's quantified and measured, therefore "proper" knowledge!

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualitative_research

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cow

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by kijin on Friday March 31, 2017 @04:36AM (#14002031)
Whatever we need to take for granted in order for a scientific experiment to mean anything at all. Most of mathematics and logic would fall into this category: we can't falsify 1 + 1 = 2 by experiment, but if we throw it out, we won't have any science at all.

A lot of people believe that fundamental principles of ethics also belong there. For example, we may be able to demonstrate whether or not something is a net benefit to the combined happiness of sentient beings, but I cannot see how one might even attempt to falsify the hypothesis that sentient beings matter at all.

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by acover on Friday March 31, 2017 @04:39AM (#14002044)
1+1=2 is falsifiable as it relates to an experiment. You could show that in an experiment that when you "add" a "one" and another "one" together you do not get "two".

If it doesn't aid in understanding the world then I'm not sure it qualifies as knowledge.

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by kijin on Friday March 31, 2017 @05:05AM (#14002142)
When you add 1kg of some stuff to 1kg of another stuff and end up with 1.97kg instead of 2kg, have you really falsified 1 + 1 = 2, or have you just confirmed that some portion of your material was vaporized in the reaction?

What does the number 1.97 even mean in a world where 1 + 1 ≠ 2? When you falsify 1 + 1 = 2, you also end up denying the validity of the very experiment that you used in the process. If a hypothesis can only be falsified by self-invalidating experiments, does it count as falsifiable?

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by mizzao on Friday March 31, 2017 @11:13AM (#14004615)
Your experiment depends on the way your scale defines "1", "2", and "kg", and can't be used to test this.
Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by kijin on Friday March 31, 2017 @08:20PM (#14009554)
That's the point. You can't design an empirical experiment to falsify the definitions of basic concepts.
Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by icen on Friday March 31, 2017 @04:51AM (#14002083)
How do you go about testing the hypothesis that 1 + 1 = 2? Not just showing that a particular physical representation obeys the logical laws of arithmetic, but to test the actual laws themselves.
Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by jamesrcole on Friday March 31, 2017 @04:52AM (#14002088)
The point is that it's not a hypothesis. Or, at least there are views about maths where it's not a hypothesis.
Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by icen on Friday March 31, 2017 @05:00AM (#14002119)
So it's something that's not a scientific hypothesis, but is considered knowledge!

(Or, if as in the other comment chain, 1+1=2 is too obvious, you can take any sufficiently non-trivial theorem of your choosing).

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by jamesrcole on Friday March 31, 2017 @06:20AM (#14002450)
Under the view I'm describing any statement like that is a kind of definition, not something that is true or false.

You can investigate whether it is consistent with other definitions. I believe that doing so is empirical work, which I think is consistent with a broad notion of science

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by acover on Friday March 31, 2017 @05:43AM (#14002308)
I could be wrong but if you wanted to test the hypothesis: given the rules of addition show that 1 + 1 = 2 can be deduced.

The experiment would be to go about the deduction. It is falsifiable.

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by kijin on Friday March 31, 2017 @06:19AM (#14002445)
When we talk about falsification in modern science, we usually mean falsification through empirical experiment. It must involve data from the real world.

If you include thought experiments based on nothing but arbitrary axioms, a lot of crazy claims about supernatural beings and other metaphysical curiosities would also qualify as falsifiable. I'm not sure whether you'd like to go down that rabbit hole. Science is about understanding the actual physical world that we live in -- not some fantasy world no matter how internally consistent it might be.

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by dragonwriter on Friday March 31, 2017 @08:22PM (#14009561)
> 1+1=2 is falsifiable as it relates to an experiment.

1+1=2 does not relate to an experiment; it is a statement about relations of concepts, not material entities.

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by TuringTest on Friday March 31, 2017 @05:34AM (#14002265)
> What is an example of a hypothesis that is not falsifiable by experiment but should still be considered "knowledge"?

As the paper points out, things like the following are problematic from a purely experimental approach:

"Scientific knowledge is better than non-scientific knowledge."

Yet many scientists treat it as common knowledge.

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by acover on Friday March 31, 2017 @05:53AM (#14002351)
> "Scientific knowledge is better than non-scientific knowledge."

Isn't this a falsifiable hypothesis?

If you analyzed various predictions made by scientific and non scientific knowledge then you could compare them and determine if one was "better".

That historical performance might not hold but the sun may not rise in the east.

That the scientific method has not be employed because our heuristics say the answer is obvious does not mean it cannot be employed.

I do agree that the scientific method is too high a bar for something to be considered knowledge.

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by TuringTest on Friday March 31, 2017 @11:32AM (#14004800)
But how do you define "better" from a scientific standpoint, and through a scientific process?
Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by sean_appleby on Friday March 31, 2017 @01:24PM (#14005979)
Is this not just an underdetermined question?

Isn't the loss of objectivity just a result of the question having more degrees of freedom than it does constraints, and the subjectivity just comes from picking which constraints to assume? Doesn't a well defined goal turn that question into a positive question?

A simpler example could be, "is it better for me to build a bridge over a highway out of cardboard or out of steel?"

It's superficially normative but becomes a positive question as soon as you define the constraint that a bridge that no one needlessly dies while walking across is better than one that kills people.

At that point all of these questions become scientifically approachable, although some are likely still hopelessly complex, as soon as you assume an axiom like, "it is best to maximize the ratio of well being over conscious suffering."

What that axiom should actually be is likely a nearly unapproachably complex amalgamation of philosophy, but it seems more reasonable to work with something than assume that there is no right answer, especially when we seem to be rapidly approaching the point of needing to have software systems make quick ethical decisions.

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by TuringTest on Friday March 31, 2017 @03:56PM (#14007546)
Yeah, but the constraints themselves that define the scientific endeavour, or the preference over bridges that don't kill people, are not and cannot be scientific.

Science is necessarily neutral in that regard; it's a tool to achieve some goals that, as you said, require a judgement value. There is some moral knowledge that provides value and motivation, and which is not scientific knowledge.

> Is this not just an underdetermined question?

Not in philosophy, no. The mother of all sciences has ways to deal with the question, which is meaningless from a purely scientific POV, but which nevertheless merits being studied. For example, it could guide you to choose and refine the guiding principles for programming your autonomous car, and to analyze whether your missing something in your "amalgamation of philosophy" that you used as the basis of that technology project.

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by AstralStorm on Friday March 31, 2017 @12:56PM (#14005684)
Pragmatic utilitarism. It works and produces most beneficial results among tested methods.

The problem is labelling what is beneficial and what is not. That is a value judgement. But if certain human rights are universal, we can agree on at least a subset of benefits.

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by TuringTest on Friday March 31, 2017 @04:06PM (#14007632)
> Pragmatic utilitarism.

That's an acceptance that philosophy is useful. Pragmatic utilitarian is one kind of philosophy.

> The problem is labelling what is beneficial and what is not. That is a value judgement.

See my reply to the other post above. [1] Philosophy is the discipline that specialises in the problem of rational analysis of value judgements. A good way to agree on which rights and valuable benefits to use is to discuss them philosophically.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14007546

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by acover on Sunday April 02, 2017 @04:28AM (#14016410)
You are right. There are thoughts that science can't explain or replicate.
Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by kapauldo on Friday March 31, 2017 @06:30AM (#14002499)
Jesus was conceived without sperm.
Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by AstralStorm on Friday March 31, 2017 @12:59PM (#14005714)
To prove this statement you must define:

1) Who are you talking about.

2) What is sperm.

3) What do you mean by conceived.

4) Whether the statement is literal or requires specific context.

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by gonvaled on Friday March 31, 2017 @08:15AM (#14002932)
Which is not the same as saying the Virgin Mary was virgin - your statement is much stronger!
Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by icen on Friday March 31, 2017 @04:37AM (#14002036)
1+1=2

And no, apples are not the same things as numbers.

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by jamesrcole on Friday March 31, 2017 @04:43AM (#14002052)
Some people would say that the relational patterns in numbers are a kind of definition, and that such statements aren't so much truths but consequences of those patterns - and that it's only when you're using the two '1's to represent real world details that the '2' is true or false.

(and BTW, there are real-world situations where '1' and '1' do not make '2'... e.g. putting a snake and a mouse in a box. We only apply maths statements like that to the kinds of entities/situations where they will apply).

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by werpon on Friday March 31, 2017 @04:51AM (#14002076)
That's an axiom. It doesn't say anything about the real world, it just introduces a framework of thought.

In other words, if you can imagine a reality where 1+1=2 for some meaning of '1', '2', '+' and '=', then a series of conclusions will hold true.

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by taejo on Friday March 31, 2017 @04:59AM (#14002116)
It's not an axiom, it's a theorem (or maybe a definition of "2"). The more usual definition of "2" is "S(S(0))" (the successor of the successor of zero). "1" is "S(0)". "S(0) + S(0) = S(S(0))" is a theorem, a consequence of the axioms "for all x and y, x + S(y) = S(x + y)" and "for all x, x + 0 = x".
Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by werpon on Friday March 31, 2017 @05:45AM (#14002323)
I called it an axiom for the sake of brevity. I felt that reciting the Peano axioms would only cloud my point.

Was I 100% precise? No. Did you add something meaningful to the discussion? That's for you to answer.

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by taejo on Friday March 31, 2017 @06:17AM (#14002437)
"axiom" is two letters shorter than "theorem", so no, brevity doesn't cut it as an excuse. The difference between an axiom and a theorem is, undoubtedly, germane to a thread about the different ways we can know things.
Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by prance on Friday March 31, 2017 @10:13AM (#14003964)
I would go further: is "Axioms exist" true? You don't find them lying around in nature. They exist only in people's minds. I would argue that this is an inherent metaphysical question.

The scientismist's (?) standpoint could be that it exists because it is manifested as a concept in human brains. But by the same argument, wouldn't they then need to acknowledge that God exists?

The crux of the matter is to do science, you need formalism to express your theories, to interpret measurement results etc. Those formalisms are what we usually call "math". But any mathematical system has axioms, i.e. something we need to just "believe" in in the first place, and those believes are not themselves provable by science.

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by AstralStorm on Friday March 31, 2017 @01:02PM (#14005747)
Axioms can be shown to be useful or not. This is why some mathematicians reason with or without axiom of choice. Likewise, systems of axioms can be shown to be consistent or not.
Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by icen on Friday March 31, 2017 @04:56AM (#14002101)
But all that says is that 1+1=2 is too obvious. How about some other, less straightforward mathematical theorem, then, like Fermat's Last Theorem.

You can hardly accuse that of being an axiom, or just introducing frameworks of thought.

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by larksimian on Friday March 31, 2017 @05:31AM (#14002252)
Mathematics is based on logical deduction. You start with a set of rules and you prove additional rules.

Science is based on (lots of things but primarily) empirical induction. You observe some phenomena, decide that they are of the same type, generate a model that predicts how all phenomena of that type behave. By necessity you observe an infinitesimal fraction of the phenomena in your type.

In math proofs are universal and timeless and complete. There is no additional observation to be made. A proof can be wrong, but if we conclude that it is logically correct then that's it. (edit: well, there's the incompleteness theorem: it could be that a set of axioms is inconsistent, but then EVERYTHING based on those axioms becomes invalid. It's still quite different than scientific progress which changes models a little bit at a time.)

Scientific models are approximations of reality(very good approximations often!) but they get tweaked as new observations come in. Or just wholesale thrown out(or at least become obsolete), see Newtonian orbital mechanics vs relativistic orbital mechanics. Newton was right-ish, but relativistic solutions are right-er(possibly fully correct?)[1].

With deductive reasoning you are expanding a definition. With inductive reasoning you are guessing at connections between observed events.

[1] http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/26408/what-did-ge...

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by cygx on Friday March 31, 2017 @07:28AM (#14002717)
Or just wholesale thrown out(or at least become obsolete), see Newtonian orbital mechanics vs relativistic orbital mechanics.

Newtonian orbital mechanics is not obsolete: Within the limits of its applicability, it's a perfectly fine framework and in use to this day.

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by return0 on Friday March 31, 2017 @05:47AM (#14002331)
But maybe one day we will know how our brains work, and we will understand what is the neural correlate of "1" , "+" and "2" and we will be able to clearly see that the only answer to 1+1 is 2 in an empirically falsifiable way.
Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by kriro on Friday March 31, 2017 @05:18AM (#14002197)
Not related to hypotheses but most axiomatic systems and the apparatus of deduction that accompanies them would probably qualify as they are not scientific (by the circular definition that anything that uses the scientific method is scientific). The most notable example would be mathematics. I'd argue that mathematics provides knowledge (as in it helps me understand stuff better).
Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by palad1n on Friday March 31, 2017 @04:32AM (#14002018)
I think therefore I am?
Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by acover on Friday March 31, 2017 @05:26AM (#14002231)
Yes. Maybe.

Is it an axiom of the scientific method? [No?]

Is it a tautology? [Maybe?]

Are there other examples other than the basis of knowledge being knowledge? [?]

Re:What’s so bad about Scientism? by IsaacL on Friday March 31, 2017 @09:49AM (#14003725)
1. "There is an objective reality". 2. "Reality is consistent". 3. "The human mind is capable of knowledge about reality".

These all need to be taken as axioms if any further knowledge is going to be possible.

There's a book called Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology which covers this in much more detail. (Ayn Rand gets a bad rep, but few people know about her theories of concepts and knowledge. They indicate the path to solving many of the issues in philosophy of science).