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Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by imh on Saturday March 25, 2017 @11:01PM (#13958857)
The point isn't that discrimination being rational makes it ok. The point is that if discrimination is irrational, the best way to fix it is different from the best solution if it were rational. It's an important factor in deciding how to best work towards equality.

If it's irrational, educating employers may be a great option. If it's rational, we probably need to level the playing field somehow (e.g. make it just as ok for dads to stay home as it is for moms or something).

Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by yummyfajitas on Saturday March 25, 2017 @11:13PM (#13958897)
Sweden tried that. They gave out 330 days of maternity + paternity leave. Women used 94% of it. So they had to make some of it "use it or lose it" for men only. Men started taking the bare minimum, so Sweden is planning to increase the "use it or lose it" portion.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2010/08/snack...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/28/swedish-father...

Consider the possibility that maybe men just don't want to stay home as much as women, even if it's acceptable.

Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by patmcc on Saturday March 25, 2017 @11:26PM (#13958943)
"Legally allowed" != "acceptable". I can't speak to Sweden directly, but Canada has (almost) gender-neutral parental leave laws and many industries/companies still consider it very unusual if a father wants to take more than three or four weeks off at the birth of a child. I have friends that explicitly told me they would have liked to stay home more, but weren't able to because they feared what would happen at work.
Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by hn_throwaway_99 on Saturday March 25, 2017 @11:59PM (#13959064)
> I have friends that explicitly told me they would have liked to stay home more, but weren't able to because they feared what would happen at work.

For anyone in a competitive work environment who wants to get ahead, though, it's not surprising that someone would feel pressure to take less time off even if they had a very supportive employer. It seems kind of obvious to me that I would feel less "behind" in work if I took 4 weeks off instead of 8.

Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by yummyfajitas on Saturday March 25, 2017 @11:30PM (#13958953)
According to the slate article it's normal and socially accepted. Men still don't do it much.
Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by emodendroket on Saturday March 25, 2017 @11:36PM (#13958974)
If men don't do it then how is it normal for men to do it?
Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by yummyfajitas on Saturday March 25, 2017 @11:42PM (#13959003)
Most men don't deadlift much, but it isn't considered abnormal that I do so on a regular basis.

Most men don't sleep with other men, but that is again not considered abnormal or socialhttp unacceptable.

Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by willvarfar on Sunday March 26, 2017 @04:09AM (#13959738)
It's strange, I don't recognize that Sweden.

In computer-type jobs it's normal for men to take plenty of parental leave, and no stigma. Many work reduced work weeks too, right up until the youngest kid is 8 years old.

I know builders and such who do the same. And I've seen a few young female builders around too.

So I'm racking my brains trying to think what type of people in what type of job can be skewing the statistics.

Sweden is not a prejudice free country, but it's way better than Britian and, from the awful impression I've got from many short visits, the US.

Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by mjevans on Saturday March 25, 2017 @11:34PM (#13958967)
I think you're jumping to several conclusions that could use additional research.

Presently the best we can say from the data is that men seem to take close to the bare minimum of required time off, so it makes sense to increase that time if the goal is men spending more time with the newborn and/or supporting their partner.

Another conclusion may be that while it it /legally/ acceptable, it is not yet socially acceptable.

Finally, maybe an alternative to that approach would be better. Something like a year where both parents are /required/ to be home taking care of the baby.

Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by yummyfajitas on Saturday March 25, 2017 @11:46PM (#13959023)
If you believe that only enlightened bureaucrats can properly make family decisions, and parents are incapable of doing so, that may indeed be good policy.

It may not surprise you that I would prefer to make my own choices.

Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by TheOtherHobbes on Sunday March 26, 2017 @12:11AM (#13959100)
Plenty of people want to make their own choices, but corporate culture imposes choices on them.

That does indeed make parents incapable of making family decisions.

Your mistake is in assuming that the legislation targets individuals.

It doesn't. It targets corporations that take advantage of individuals.

Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by yummyfajitas on Sunday March 26, 2017 @02:12AM (#13959477)
Corporate culture merely provides a choice. You can always quit your job if you dislike the choice offered.

Legislation does target individuals; it forbids me from choosing money over time. As a person with no desire to stay home for long periods, this directly harms me.

Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by gmac on Sunday March 26, 2017 @05:18AM (#13959897)
You can always quit your job if you dislike the choice offered.

Right, and find a job with completely different terms, which, uh, very likely doesn't exist.

This kind of "everything's a choice" BS really bugs me. There are plenty of situations where regulation is the only solution, and I suspect this is one of them. Since employers use willingness to work long hours as a signal of commitment/productivity, very few people get the choice to work shorter hours, even if almost everybody would be happier that way.

Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by icebraining on Sunday March 26, 2017 @03:47AM (#13959692)
How does it forbid you? The law doesn't force you to take that time; it merely doesn't allow your partner to take it on your behalf.
Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by yummyfajitas on Sunday March 26, 2017 @04:12AM (#13959750)
I am not permitted to enter into a "more money, less leave" contract with a willing employer.
Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by kaitai on Sunday March 26, 2017 @09:45AM (#13960749)
Women (fortunately or unfortunately) are not permitted these contracts either. It's not possible to promise chastity or childlessness or plead hysterectomy and get more money; the actual condition of one's reproductive equipment or desires is ignored and instead a broad bias ("she might leave!") is applied to all.
Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by icebraining on Sunday March 26, 2017 @04:24AM (#13959777)
Right, but that's unrelated to the efforts to get men to take up more leave (increasing the "use it or lose it" for men), since even if the time was all usable by the mother, you couldn't enter into a contract renouncing it either. So I don't see how it's germane to the point you introduced earlier.
Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by emodendroket on Sunday March 26, 2017 @12:28PM (#13961539)
Yes, but fundamentally you don't understand the premises your interlocutors are starting from. Essentially, the view you're encountering is that a certain amount of vacation, parental leave, and related benefits are an intrinsic good and that nobody should be forced to choose between their career and, for instance, taking paternity leave. To someone with that view talking about losing the "choice" to forego these benefits for the sake of your career is pointless in much the same way it'd be pointless for me to appeal to the Bible in an ethical debate with an atheist.
Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by mcguire on Sunday March 26, 2017 @11:49AM (#13961337)
And you can always get another job during the time you are on leave.
Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by halomru on Sunday March 26, 2017 @11:08AM (#13961144)
>Something like a year where both parents are /required/ to be home taking care of the baby.

That solves the problem (?) that men spend less time with the newborn, but I have my doubts that it solves discrimination problems. Employers would just start hiring people who are less likely to have children (big data will make that even easier) and discourage their employees from getting families and thus children. Now the discrimination is just shifted around instead of removed, and on top of that it decreases the already low birth rate.

Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by imh on Sunday March 26, 2017 @02:40AM (#13959548)
Maybe I phrased it poorly. Being ok or acceptable isn't exactly what I meant re: leveling the playing field. Maybe it needs to be expected or something. I wouldn't expect something so cultural to balance out in under a generation anyways. Culture takes time (and sometimes it just takes new people).

The point wasn't the example of paternity leave anyhow. The point is that some kind of leveling would need to happen if we want to equalize on some rational form of discrimination.

Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by Pica_soO on Sunday March 26, 2017 @08:13AM (#13960377)
If its so irrational, why do non-irrational companys not wipe irrational companys from the face of the earth?
Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by mcguire on Sunday March 26, 2017 @11:52AM (#13961351)
Has any company ever tried being non-irrational?

I highly recommend Misbehaving by Richard Thaler, particularly the chapter of the American football draft in this instance.

Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by emodendroket on Sunday March 26, 2017 @12:32PM (#13961560)
If it's irrational but companies are inherently irrational then the result is the same as if it's rational and companies are rational, right? Either way you need something beside the Invisible Hand if you hope to solve the problem.
Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by mcguire on Sunday March 26, 2017 @05:51PM (#13963511)
'Rational' has a specific meaning in economics; on the weak end, it means an oddly strong knowledge of probability and game theory, while at the strong end it means completely prescient.

Outside of some limited cases, such as small groups of economists, there is no evidence that anyone, anywhere, had behaved 'rationally'.

Re:How Subtle Class Cues Can Backfire on a Resume (2016) by emodendroket on Sunday March 26, 2017 @06:02PM (#13963566)
What I'm saying is that question isn't even really material to the discussion at hand. Either discrimination is rational and rational economic actors are discriminating, or else it's irrational and irrational economic actors are discriminating (or else maybe it's rational and irrational economic actors are acting rationally for irrational reasons, or whatever combination of the two you like). Either way the market will not fix the problem without intervention.