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Re:Scotland to seek second independence referendum by pbhjpbhj on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:00AM (#13858329)
>Disclaimer: I'm a child of English parents who was born in Wales but grew up in Scotland. I have Scottish and English children, in-laws and cousins. I have a family home in Scotland but I currently live in England. My children live in England and Scotland. Some of us live in Italy. //

This may be an indication of the problem. To my view your opener should be "I'm a child of British parents, born in Britain and grew up in Britain. I have British children. I, and my children, live in Britain. Some of us live elsewhere in the EU."

Somewhere we've hung on to the the idea that we're a [loose] amalgam of separate nations to which we really owe our loyalty [if any is owed]. Whilst that doesn't seem to be the case in other parts of the world [corrections?]. Which other sub-divisions of single countries compete internationally in sports for example?

Re:Scotland to seek second independence referendum by sambeau on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:29AM (#13858622)
I would have but that would have made things very confusing: I feel 100% British. My immediate family is scattered around the UK our forefathers were scattered throughout the British Isles—one half of the family was Irish. Even my English parents have Scottish blood somewhere down the line.

Even worse for me, I'm an internationalist and I felt very proud to be part of the EU for many of the same reasons I felt proud to be part of the UK: civic nationalism. The UK was the worlds most successful civic nation built on mutualism between a number of ethnic countries. To break up on ethnic borders and return to tribalism is heartbreaking.

Re:Scotland to seek second independence referendum by pjc50 on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:52AM (#13858865)
> built on mutualism

Was it?

I mean, that's how it's taught in schools, but how well does that reflect the actual history? Certainly it doesn't represent the UK's history with Ireland, which really isn't taught in schools. That's how people like Melanie "wrong about everything all of the time" Phillips can write national newspaper articles in which Ireland has a "tenuous claim to nationhood".

This is kind of the problem, we have all this national mythos that runs up to about 1966 and then stops. And it doesn't bear scrutiny in the modern age. The last attempt at building a national narrative that worked for everyone was the Blair era "cool Britannia", and half a million dead Iraqis took the shine off that a bit.

Not to mention the inward focus of Unionism. Everyone looks towards London, but London doesn't look outwards. Occasionally it dispatches a foreign correspondent to Manchester to report on conditions. The average English person thinks of Scotland little and NI not at all.

Re:Scotland to seek second independence referendum by rmc on Wednesday March 15, 2017 @09:34AM (#13875943)
> I mean, that's how it's taught in schools, but how well does that reflect the actual history? Certainly it doesn't represent the UK's history with Ireland, which really isn't taught in schools.

How it's taught in schools in UK/England perhaps. In Ireland the history class is all about how England is a horrible oppressor of Ireland. ;)

Re:Scotland to seek second independence referendum by kpil on Monday March 13, 2017 @12:00PM (#13858947)
It's perhaps part of the confusion, and a sign that the states - rather than nations - have become so important that the concepts have been muddled, but I think that what you refer to as a "civic nation" is actually typically called a "state."

"Ethnic countries" - if the states primarily contains one nation of people - ethnically (ie mainly culturally), is commonly referred to as a national state.

National states became a popular concept in the 19th century, possibly because the kings, emperors and other rulers were starting to loose power and had to build their states around some concept. Before that, the kings and the rulers did not give the nationality of their subjects much of a thought I suppose.

Re:Scotland to seek second independence referendum by pizzetta on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:06AM (#13858385)
I think you may be reading too much into it. I think poster is using those labels to illustrate the issue rather than for the purpose of asserting nationalism.
Re:Scotland to seek second independence referendum by alistairSH on Monday March 13, 2017 @11:29AM (#13858627)
Whilst that doesn't seem to be the case in other parts of the world [corrections?]

Some (many?) Americans would describe themselves as hailing from a specific state or city, not the nation.

Personally, when traveling abroad, if asked where I'm from, I generally say "Washington DC", not "the US".

Re:Scotland to seek second independence referendum by restalis on Monday March 13, 2017 @02:42PM (#13860971)
«Personally, when traveling abroad, if asked where I'm from, I generally say "Washington DC", not "the US".»

Yeah, I've met people like you. The problem is, this asks from your interlocutor of awareness for internal USA geography knowledge. On the other hand, many of those "from San Francisco" or from somewhere alike expect you to be just "from Europe" instead of "Germany" (or any other national state with its own cultural identity and external policy, for that matter).

P.S.: Try "Franconia" or "Thuringia" instead of "Germany" and see how many bells that rings! Mind you, these are broad regions, not merely cities.

Re:Scotland to seek second independence referendum by Symbiote on Monday March 13, 2017 @03:14PM (#13861297)
It doesn't need any extra knowledge, assuming people know Washington DC is in the USA. They're no worse off than if he says "the USA".

I often say "London". I don't like saying "England", I consider the whole UK to by my country, but "United Kingdom" or even "Britain" are often not understood, and in any case, "which city?" is almost always the next question.

There are exceptions. If I'm introducing myself to someone with very limited English, like a young child in a developing country, I'll say England.

Re:Scotland to seek second independence referendum by restalis on Monday March 13, 2017 @03:53PM (#13861708)
It happened to me quite a lot to introduce foreign clients to local acquaintances that haven't traveled abroad and don't have much knowledge (or interest) about outside world. Yeah, they heard of Washington (DC), alright, but haven't heard of SF and that caused a scene to my local pals with them being clearly unaware of where that place was and also being a little embarrassed to ask more. US citizens are not the only ones, this also happened with Vancouver and Melbourne. These are indeed prominent cities but not necessarily in anyone's world, and it seems nicer when that "which city?" comes instead of "where is that?"
Re:Scotland to seek second independence referendum by alistairSH on Wednesday March 15, 2017 @01:34PM (#13878022)
It's at least a bit dependent on who is asking. I would expect somebody from Western Europe, Australia, etc to know Washington DC and SF (and London, Manchester, Frankfurt, etc).

I wouldn't have the same expectation of somebody from Asia. Not only is language a possible problem, but there are a TON of large cities in China (and other parts of Asia) I know nothing about.

Re:Scotland to seek second independence referendum by Symbiote on Monday March 13, 2017 @04:53PM (#13862249)
Vancouver and Melbourne I can understand, but I'm amazed that there are people in the developed world that haven't heard of San Francisco.

That city has been part of the American "brand" for decades; from hippies, free love, Vietnam protesters and gay rights, to the dot-com boom and more recent startups. Add some destructive earthquakes, plenty of American films and music, and the international press whenever a startup does something bad.