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Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by WillyOnWheels on Sunday March 12, 2017 @11:42AM (#13851143)
The United States has plenty of moral responsibility to accept immigrants from countries in Central America after spending billions screwing them up with dirty secret wars in the 70s and 80s.
Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by mc32 on Sunday March 12, 2017 @12:22PM (#13851356)
If you're going to ask this question, then you might want also ask how would they had fared had Cuba and USSR succeeded in those places, it's not as though we don't have people fleeing post-USSR countries like Cuba, Georgia and Russia and Ukraine, etc.

And how much is Russia taking in for their past internationalist activities?

I think the answer in the current world political context should be obvious if we consider Singapore. What would happen if they just opened the doors and let anyone who wanted to go in, go in (IN, ID, PH, MY, BD, as well as Pan-EU)?

Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by coldtea on Sunday March 12, 2017 @12:43PM (#13851506)
>If you're going to ask this question, then you might want also ask how would they had fared had Cuba and USSR succeeded in those places

Better? Cuba, considering the embargo that fucked them twice over, is better off compared to most of the hell-holes intervention created in Latin America.

Even as a dictatorship it's much more benign compared to people like Pinochet that was supported, put in place, and much beloved by the US.

Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by mc32 on Sunday March 12, 2017 @12:53PM (#13851580)
I'm not sure we can reach that conclusion. Many of those places were industrializing with light industries before the ussr and Cuba meddled. Another issue is and was demographic growth and transitioning from rural to urban societies which created social issues the user and Cuba tried to leverage in their quest to evangelize their political and economic systems.

Also, do we ask something from the UK for embargoing us for a couple hundred years?

Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by coldtea on Sunday March 12, 2017 @01:10PM (#13851700)
You could, but currently they are hardly better off (the us) to offer much. Unlike others, their embargo was "too little, too late".
Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by fixxer on Sunday March 12, 2017 @04:18PM (#13852828)
I've been to Cuba twice. I disagree.

How many times have you been there?

Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by coldtea on Sunday March 12, 2017 @04:52PM (#13853040)
It's not the relative number of times that counts.

You can live for years in a place and have the wrong impression about it. In fact, you can even be born in a place and leave there all your life and have and have the wrong impression about it. And you can also have historical reasons to disagree that don't apply to the general population (e.g. one's relatives being big-shots under the previous regime).

It's also easy to visit a place and just see what you wanted to see. Tourists traveling in utter misery do it all the time -- they have a great time, and people a few km from their hotel might be dying in slums.

I'm not saying that you did those things and I didn't. Just that measuring how many times more one has been there is not really relevant.

Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by fixxer on Sunday March 12, 2017 @04:59PM (#13853078)
Translation: you've been there zero times and only know what you've read from your Progressive news sources and Michael fucking Moore.

I went both times as part of a humanitarian mission to bring medical supplies. Cuba sucks. Great people. Horrible government.

Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by coldtea on Sunday March 12, 2017 @05:21PM (#13853201)
>Translation: you've been there zero times and only know what you've read from your Progressive news sources and Michael fucking Moore.

Not an American, not interested in Michael Moore -- there are actual historians and accounts not just pop culture, and I've visited several times (and a large number of other parts of the world too).

But the use of "progressive news" as some kind of bad source paints a picture.

Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by whorleater on Sunday March 12, 2017 @11:49AM (#13851163)
Does Japan have the moral responsibility to accept Chinese immigrants after the atrocities committed in WW2?
Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by WillyOnWheels on Sunday March 12, 2017 @11:54AM (#13851181)
That's a good question! I don't know. Our stunts in Central America were pretty recent.
Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by woofyman on Sunday March 12, 2017 @11:59AM (#13851210)
How long should the statue of limitations be? The European colonial powers fucked around South America, Africa, the Middle East, and Asia.
Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by coldtea on Sunday March 12, 2017 @12:45PM (#13851518)
There should not be a statue of limitations.

Americans act as is 20 years even is ancient history.

Even after 100 or 150 years, a huge damage can still resonate to a country.

Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by WillyOnWheels on Sunday March 12, 2017 @12:03PM (#13851235)
I also would give immigrants from Central America a break here in the US because we benefit so much from selling them goods, and the labor they provide for the agriculture industry. I'm just pulling this out of my butt but I don't think the US exports much to other countries besides weapons and food.
Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by wayn3 on Sunday March 12, 2017 @11:59AM (#13851213)
Let's talk about the ethnic Koreans living in Japan first. They feel like second class citizens. Heavily discriminated against.
Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by MichaelGG on Sunday March 12, 2017 @11:56AM (#13851188)
How does that help? Letting in a small percentage of the population while the rest still lives in terrible conditions isn't much of a solution.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like much short of near colonization will fix these places on any reasonable timescale. Simply sending money/aid programs might alleviate a bit but an outside solution is needed to properly coordinate/manage resources.

Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by wz1000 on Sunday March 12, 2017 @12:25PM (#13851376)
>Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like much short of near colonization will fix these places on any reasonable timescale. Simply sending money/aid programs might alleviate a bit but an outside solution is needed to properly coordinate/manage resources.

This view is simply ignorant of history.

The US doesn't need to colonize countries to "manage resources" for them in a benevolent way. The first thing it needs to do is stop actively sabotaging them and their economies. Interestingly, "benevolent" management of resources that "primitives" mishandle has been a justification for nearly all colonization programs in the past few centuries, except perhaps what the Belgians did in the Congo.

Economic sanctions against countries in Latin America, purely for ideological and political reasons, as well as massive American agriculture subsidies, have devastating effects on their economies.

This is, of course, when they aren't straight up invaded or sabotaged by America.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Pana...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contras

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27%C3%A...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominican_Civil_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada

Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by MichaelGG on Sunday March 12, 2017 @12:39PM (#13851477)
That's great, meanwhile what's an actual solution for today? You've got hilariously corrupt governments and incompetence at every level of society. Stuff doesn't work and people are resigned to it. High performers will do their best to insulate themselves or emigrate.

Just because the US went halfway in meddling before doesn't mean that a proper setup (replacing local government with a governor) would not work. If the goal was to create a decently running society versus extracting resources there should be no problem.

At some point, you gotta admit that hey, these countries are messed up. Whatever the reason, the current situation isn't working. Just like if you stabbed someone and really injured them. The correct response isn't to say "wow I should just stop interfering with you completely" but to realise they're bleeding out and, even if they protest, get them medical care until they're healthy again.

Or, you know, pretend that their independence matters, that every country can just do fine if only they're left alone, and ignore the terrible conditions most of their population lives in.

Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by wz1000 on Sunday March 12, 2017 @01:02PM (#13851648)
Like I said,

> Interestingly, "benevolent" management of resources that "primitives" mishandle has been a justification for nearly all colonization programs in the past few centuries, except perhaps what the Belgians did in the Congo.

Even US foreign aid is distributed in a way completely subservient to US geopolitical interests. The perhaps most chilling example(and there are many examples) of this would be when the US denied food aid to Bangaldesh in '74, when the country was undergoing a massive famine(which ultimately led to the deaths of 4 million people). This wasn't just a simple denial, but an act of ransom against an impoverished, suffering people who just won their independence from a genocide-committing, US-backed Pakistan. The Americans had initially promised food aid to Bangladesh, and this aid was ready to deliver, when the Bangladeshis were told that they had to immediately cease all trade relations with Cuba to see any of it. Not only was Cuba one of the few trading partners of Bangladesh at the time, but also one of the first few countries to recognize their independence and status as a nation. By the time Bangladeshi leaders agreed to this demand, the famine was largely over and had claimed the bulk of its victims. US aid finally arrived too late to be of any use.

All of this was at the same time as when America was giving massive quantities of grain as food "aid" to South Vietnam, which was on its own a surplus food producing country. The grain given to South Vietnam was used(indeed, meant to be used) as barter in exchange for weapons from other countries. Just another instance of when American "charity" is used for American geopolitical interests rather than any meaningful form of charity.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that a nation state, especially one with the track record of the US, can be trusted to "benevolently" interfere with other countries. The only thing it will do, indeed can do, given the power structures that comprise it, is act in its own best interests, which are often as not to the detriment of the host country.

Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by classicsnoot on Sunday March 12, 2017 @12:40PM (#13851485)
I am genuinely interested to hear about any postcolonial country that is doing well without a much larger benefactor behind it. I am not disagreeing with you on the past mistakes and missteps of intervention and sub-optimal appropriation, but blaming the colonials has not really helped anywhere, especially not Africa.

I take it you are opposed to the Monroe Doctrine. Do you think Spain, France, England, and the Netherlands would have just left Central America to their own devices? I am not making a lesser of two evils argument. Indeed, ascribing morality to the interactions of nation-states is silly IMO, but weak states are always going to be manipulated by stronger states.

Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by wz1000 on Sunday March 12, 2017 @01:28PM (#13851799)
Former British India and Colonial Indochina¸ along with nations like Egypt have done pretty well economically given their socioeconomic conditions at the end of colonization, and considering the massive drain of wealth and resources to their colonizers undertaken over centuries.
Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by classicsnoot on Thursday March 16, 2017 @12:21AM (#13882459)
Ignoring the holes in your historical retelling of events, these examples do not fit my criteria as all three listed benefited from outside support from large powers (India::Russia/Britain, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia::China, and Egypt::Russia/USA). As such, my point still stands...
Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by wz1000 on Thursday March 16, 2017 @05:08AM (#13883575)
No nation can exist in a vacuum. Your "criteria" excludes pretty much every country in the world.

Even then, USSR-India cooperation was mostly limited to military matters, like when the Soviets sent a carrier during the '71 war of independence for Bangladesh to keep the Americans from joining in.

India(under Nehru) and Egypt(under Nasser) actually founded the Non-Aligned Movement to avoid being pawns in the games of the US and USSR. This move confused and antagonized the Americans(if you are not our friend, you must be our enemy), which was why they had much closer ties with the Soviets. Nehru even rejected a permanent seat in the UNSC because of the NAM. You can hardly find two countries that did their best not to depend on foreign influence and benefactors. Of course in Egypt, after Nasser's downfall and the destruction of any hope for sovereign, secular Arab nationalism, the US gladly stepped in and took control of the pieces. The consequences of that are for all to see.

Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by pimmen89 on Sunday March 12, 2017 @01:00PM (#13851635)
I didn't say that, I said that even if only a few people could move it could help. You asked "How would that help?"

I'm not saying that remittances from some lucky people who have the means to move are the solution to world poverty, but they help. If you don't want to do anything that helps, but won't solve the problem in three seconds flat without any side effects, then I'm all ears of what your suggestion is?

Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by pimmen89 on Sunday March 12, 2017 @12:33PM (#13851428)
> How does that help? Letting in a small percentage of the population while the rest still lives in terrible conditions isn't much of a solution.

One word; remittances. They already make up far more money than foreign aid, and the best part is that it's far harder for corrupt governments to get their hands on it. Don't underestimate the passion those few people who enter the country has for their families back home.

Re:Is There a Right to Immigrate? (2010) by MichaelGG on Sunday March 12, 2017 @12:45PM (#13851522)
Remittances are huge, hence the suggestion to halt/tax them was such a blow to Mexico: millions of households suddenly unable to pay rent/utilities -- it'd be a cascading nightmare.

So the answer is to let X% of the population in so 5X% can receive foreign money but still be subjected to a broken environment?