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Re:Windows 10 Tip: Turn Off File Explorer Advertising by lewisl9029 on Friday March 10, 2017 @03:37AM (#13837176)
I don't think this general notion, that a company can have some kind of intrinsic evil or goodness that is somehow immune to management changes, changes in competitive landscape, and generational shifts resulting from the passage of time, is really rational.

Companies are not people. Companies can't have nor lack a moral compass that tells them right from wrong.

Companies are run by people. These people are the ones making the business decisions and doing the work that enables the company as a whole to do ethical or not-so-unethical things.

The people running these companies can and do get replaced. And when enough of them get replaced, the past actions of a company will no longer be representative of its potential tendencies from that point onwards. This is very simply because a new set of people will be the ones making business decisions and doing the work, and these new people will become the real moral compass behind the company's decision making.

And let's not forget the fact that even people can change. So what's stopping them from changing while running a company, which would thereby be reflected in the actions of the company itself?

All of this change tends to happen slowly and gradually, but change itself, for better or worse, is inevitable as long as a company remains solvent.

Of course, I'm certainly not suggesting that I know for a fact that Microsoft itself has turned an entirely new leaf. In fact, I find all of their recent actions toward limiting user freedom and privacy as disgusting, exploitative and unethical as most others in this thread.

My point is, however, we should try to judge each individual action of a company on their own merit or lack thereof, rather than always viewing them through a lense tinted by some extrapolation of their actions from 20 years ago into some fundamental measurement of the company's intrisic goodness or evil. At the very least, we should try to make an effort to calibrate our lenses to weigh new information more favorably than old, because otherwise, even when the company itself may have long moved on, our opinions of them will forever be stuck in the past.

Re:Windows 10 Tip: Turn Off File Explorer Advertising by mtgx on Friday March 10, 2017 @04:37AM (#13837433)
> Companies are run by people.

That's only true to a certain extent. Don't forget companies are mainly run by profits. That's what really ends up deciding how the company is run.

Do you think a "good guy CEO" would stop Microsoft from extracting billions of dollars worth of royalties for bogus patents from Android and Linux vendors? Of course not. If there was such a CEO, he'd be quickly shut down by the board. And if the board were "sweetheart angels" that would ask for that, too, they would be replaced by investors.

So companies are really more like a machine, and the people are more like cogs in it. The machine's main goal is to produce profits. If one of the cogs says "no, that's not what we primarily want!", it will very likely get replaced. It takes a tremendous amount of will power to fight against the machine's desires, and it's usually only strong founders that can do it (Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk).

But those are the exception, not the rule. And even then, it's more about delaying profit gratification, rather than foregoing some profits altogether. It's about them knowing that if they do it their way, the company would be even more successful and profitable in the long term, while the machine's forces demand the profits right away.

Re:Windows 10 Tip: Turn Off File Explorer Advertising by lewisl9029 on Friday March 10, 2017 @05:00AM (#13837528)
Definitely a fair and salient point. Though I would argue turning a profit and acting ethically aren't always conflicting concerns.

In fact, ethical behavior is just another knob in the machine that people running a company can turn either way in their quest to maximize profit.

Erring on the side of too much ethical behavior can certainly impact profit in the form of lost efficiency and market opportunities, but we have to recognize that companies' customers are people too, and people generally have a distaste for unethical companies, and a fondness for ethical ones, that may influence their decision do business with them.

So turning the knob too far to either side can have direct and indirect implications for profit, and it's up to the people running the company to calibrate that knob in either direction.

Oftentimes the courses of actions a company can take on any given issue will not be a simple sorted array of choices with an obvious straightforward relationship in the form of less ethics -> more profit, but rather a complex decision matrix of causes and effects for which the outcome of any single option will be impossible to fully predict, and investors can generally see that too. So the people running the company will usually have some degree of freedom to experiment with which direction to turn the knob on ethics, and how far.

Re:Windows 10 Tip: Turn Off File Explorer Advertising by pessimizer on Friday March 10, 2017 @06:32AM (#13837838)
The only way unethical behavior affects profit is when it causes projecting the appearance of being an ethical company to become more expensive. To whatever extent that "people" avoid doing business with companies that they see as unethical, what they see is a company's image and branding, not their actual behavior. The balance is between unethical behavior and PR costs, not unethical behavior and ethical behavior; and that's even a gross simplification, because ethical behavior doesn't immunize you from bad PR.
Re:Windows 10 Tip: Turn Off File Explorer Advertising by lewisl9029 on Friday March 10, 2017 @02:06PM (#13841102)
I totally agree with your interpretation of the relationship between unethical/ethical behavior and bad PR, but you seem to be ignoring the opposite side of that coin. I hope this doesn't come off as combative, but I felt the easiest way to illustrate my point was by rewording your post:

> The only way ethical behavior affects profit is when it causes projecting the appearance of being an ethical company to become less expensive. To whatever extent that "people" prefer doing business with companies that they see as ethical, what they see is a company's image and branding, not their actual behavior. The balance is between ethical behavior and PR costs, not ethical behavior and unethical behavior; and that's even a gross simplification, because unethical behavior doesn't immunize you from good PR.

Maybe the effects of good PR can be less easily measured and felt than the obvious and immediate repercussions of bad PR, but the effects are certainly real and build up with time, so reasonable people can disagree as to what degree a company should pursue building up goodwill through ethical (likable) acts. Ethical decisions and behavior is the foundation upon which good PR is built. Even the most obviously opportunistic PR stunt must have some backing in an action the company has taken that can be construed by their audience as doing good.

Re:Windows 10 Tip: Turn Off File Explorer Advertising by forgotmypw on Friday March 10, 2017 @05:11AM (#13837550)
If you replace all the pieces in a boat, is it a different boat? You suggest that it is, but I think it's pretty much the same boat.
Re:Windows 10 Tip: Turn Off File Explorer Advertising by TheRealDunkirk on Friday March 10, 2017 @07:55AM (#13838212)
You're getting crap for saying this, but you've hit the nail on the head. As people are replaced in a company, what does the company do? They backfill the role with someone who they estimate to be the most similar to the person who left! In my experience, the net difference is next to nothing.

Companies take on the behavior of the personalities of the people at the top. Nadella, like Gates and Ballmer before him, was selected based on shrewdness, and everything flows from there. It's simple. The company will continue to bear the culture born of Gates because of their board (at the top), and their HR department (everywhere else).

Re:Windows 10 Tip: Turn Off File Explorer Advertising by lewisl9029 on Friday March 10, 2017 @02:56PM (#13841555)
I don't doubt that Nadella is likely every bit as shrewd as the CEOs that came before him, and that his decisions are driven by ulterior motives that are more than what meets the eye.

However, shrewdness is just one trait, and I think it's disingenuous to insist that we can reasonably ignore all other consequences of having a different human being running the company because their shrewdness makes them as interchangeable as planks on a wooden boat.

Personalities and management philosophies can't be reduced into some simple measure on a shrewdness scale, and the other differences between these real human beings that you don't seem to be taking into account can and do bring real change in how the company behaves and operates. Maybe not a lot of the change is concentrated on the axis that you've cherry-picked, but that doesn't mean we can dismiss all the other change that may have resulted from this change in management as "next to nothing".

Re:Windows 10 Tip: Turn Off File Explorer Advertising by barkingcat on Friday March 10, 2017 @09:35AM (#13838847)
Absolutely they do not "backfill the role with someone who they estimate to be the most similar to the person who left!"

They in fact back fill the role with someone they think should be in charge of the future of the position (which is very often in a radically different direction), or more often than not eliminate the role altogether.

By your estimation, when Steve Balmer retired, the board would have hired another Steve. No, that's not the case. They hired Nadella who is different.

Re:Windows 10 Tip: Turn Off File Explorer Advertising by TheRealDunkirk on Friday March 10, 2017 @10:40AM (#13839380)
I am absolutely saying Microsoft's board replaced Ballmer with someone "like" him. To wit (as I said): shrewd. Ballmer shrewedly wrung all he could out of Microsoft's monopoly. People who think that Nadella is somehow some new, kinder, gentler Microsoft CEO are drinking the Microsoft-branded Kool-Aid. Nadella, per the popular notion, is only "embracing" open source out of a shrewd response to being forced to by the market. Moves like the one that inspired this entire article and discussion are proof of that.

Microsoft still sells (almost) no hardware, PC sales are dropping like a stone, corporate sales are lagging (my Fortune 150 switched to Windows 8 a YEAR after 10 was released), and Microsoft has to monetize seats of Windows somehow. What's left? Collecting and selling user data and advertising. This sort of thing has to have been approved by Nadella. Is this the move of a "kinder, gentler" CEO who just loves open source and freedom? No, it's a move by a shrewd person who is desperately trying to keep his company relevant in the face of phones, tablets, clouds, and social media.

Re:Windows 10 Tip: Turn Off File Explorer Advertising by lvoudour on Friday March 10, 2017 @07:28AM (#13838064)
The point of the paradox [1] is to replace/upgrade all the pieces with similar ones (planks with other planks). Unless you believe that human beings are interchangeable, it doesn't apply in this case

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

Re:Windows 10 Tip: Turn Off File Explorer Advertising by lewisl9029 on Friday March 10, 2017 @05:17AM (#13837574)
If people in companies were literal straw men, your straw man would have a point.
Re:Windows 10 Tip: Turn Off File Explorer Advertising by Finnucane on Friday March 10, 2017 @09:45AM (#13838906)
It's not the boat that's being replaced, but the crew. And life aboard the boat will change as the crew changes, but one crew member, even the captain, has limited power to change it all by themselves. So change comes, not necessarily very fast, or fast enough when the weather changes.
Re:Windows 10 Tip: Turn Off File Explorer Advertising by Nursie on Friday March 10, 2017 @03:41AM (#13837206)
So there's no such thing as corporate culture?
Re:Windows 10 Tip: Turn Off File Explorer Advertising by lewisl9029 on Friday March 10, 2017 @03:43AM (#13837217)
There certainly is. I'm not sure where in my post you're detecting that sense of absolutism you're reading into it. But culture, like everything else in a company, is also shaped by its people. Which means culture can change as well. Any change will be a slow process due to inertia, but it can and will happen if enough people in the company want it to happen.
Re:Windows 10 Tip: Turn Off File Explorer Advertising by xtian on Friday March 10, 2017 @09:17AM (#13838688)
The question is not whether a company can change, it's whether it will. The values and priorities that a company emphasizes condition employees and managers to think in a certain way. Changing that conditioning over a large population and after many years takes more than a few personnel replacements and a new mission statement. Any new people you add will be significantly outnumbered by existing employees, so how do you get "enough people" to want something they've learned to not see?
Re:Windows 10 Tip: Turn Off File Explorer Advertising by lewisl9029 on Friday March 10, 2017 @02:24PM (#13841266)
> The question is not whether a company can change, it's whether it will.

I think whether a company can change is the right question, because it stands to reason that if a company can change, then given enough time, it will change. How much time is "enough" for any given company is anybody's guess, and as stated in my original post, I'm certainly not claiming that in this case Microsoft has in fact changed for the better. But to rule out that possibility completely because of what they've done in the past strikes me as irrational.