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Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by krisroadruck on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:19PM (#13825344)
Do we all know? I currently weigh 270lbs (and climbing) and I

  * Don't consume soda or sugary drinks of any kind
  * Go on 3 mile walks 3-4x weekly
  * Have switched to soylent 100% of meals to make calorie counting dead simple
  * Recently cut out alcohol too
And yet pounds are adding on not coming off. I've been gaining about 10-15lbs a year every year since I hit 30 after being at a stable weight of 170lbs for all of my teens and 20s and none of the adjustments I've made have had ANY impact on it what-so-ever. So maybe its not just "eat less, fatty". Maybe there is something else going on?
Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by matthewmacleod on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:37PM (#13825532)
Perhaps unfortunately, the human body cannot ignore physics - weight gain does ultimately come down to "you are consuming more calories than you are expending"!

You're right that "eat less, fatty" is not a helpful message. That's actually the key point in these discussions - we do know how to avoid weight gain in the abstract sense (consume less than you burn), but the implementation of that is what's difficult. Different foods have different effects on metabolism; it's difficult to count calories accurately; people often overestimate the calories that exercise burns and underestimate their consumption. It's made more difficult by sedentary lifestyles, prepared foods, and so on.

If you are gaining a pound a month consuming nothing but soylent, then you're consuming too much of it. There's no way around that fact. But the point is that it's not a failing on your part - it just demonstrates how difficult it is in practice to control one's own lifestyle.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by prostoalex on Thursday March 09, 2017 @12:30AM (#13827218)
> weight gain does ultimately come down to "you are consuming more calories than you are expending"

That is incorrect, but it does help sell gym memerships.

Moreover, expending more calories via exercise typically leads to weight gain, according to emprirical studies (and anecdotal look around gym's elliptical machines next time you're in one) https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/11/12/exercising-but-gai...

Fat accummulation (and disposal) are governed by insulin, whose production is triggered by sugars and other carbohydrates.

Confusingly, consuming a high-fat, low-protein and zero-carbohydrate diet will also lead to a severe decrease in calories (as it's pretty hard to overdose on olives, coconut oil or lardo), but it's nevertheless a correlation.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by piva00 on Thursday March 09, 2017 @07:17AM (#13828751)
No, that's not incorrect. By thermodynamics it's impossible you are gaining weight by not consuming more calories than what you are spending, you don't absorb this energy out of thin air or radiation, you've eaten it, not used and your body has stored it.

It can be that our models for calculating TDEE, etc. are wrong and not accounting for a multitude of factors that might affect energy expenditure but still, it boils down to calories in -> calories out in the most simplistic level.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by prostoalex on Thursday March 09, 2017 @12:09PM (#13830679)
Calorie is a unit of energy. Wooden logs have calories, and so does paper and chalk. Leaving safety concerns aside, I cannot substitute my salad with some paper I can get from the shredder. If I did, I am unlikely to get extremely obese on shredded paper diet, as most of it is fiber, so it just hits the output channel of the digestive track.

Calorie present != calorie consumed != calorie processed by digestive system != calorie deposited in the fat tissue

If all calories were the same, consuming 300 calories from a can of Coke and consuming 300 calories of green salad would lead to same outcomes. In long term they do not.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by sn9 on Thursday March 09, 2017 @06:17PM (#13834769)
The idea that biologists aren't aware of the difference in the digestibility of paper versus lettuce is just insultingly ignorant.

There's a reason why you lose weight if you have a tapeworm or have chronic diarrhea while eating the same amount of food isn't a mystery to the scientific community.

Most people don't see that much variation between the calories that pass their mouths and those that are digested by their GI tract. It's usually constant enough that calories in - calories out is enough to figure out how much you need to eat to lose weight. Even if there was a disparity between calories consumed and calories processed by the GI tract, that would only present itself as a "higher/lower metabolism" and wouldn't mean lowering calories wouldn't work to lower weight.

You can't get around physics and biology.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by prostoalex on Thursday March 09, 2017 @06:29PM (#13834866)
> you lose weight if you have a tapeworm or have chronic diarrhea while eating the same amount

Okay, but that seems like an outlier case. The study I am looking for would be summarized roughly as "100 fat people start on a lower-calorie diet and increase their exercise routine over the course of 180 days. 98% of them (some statistical variation to account for weird genetics) consistently lose X pounds, a large group (60-70%) loses as many as Y pounds".

Most experiments that were set up that way either ended up reporting the results "inconclusive", or worse, as the caloric intake generally decreased, the weight increased http://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(96)00456-1/abstract

I am looking for the one, or two, or a dozen, that doesn't. Should be relatively easy to replicate.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by sn9 on Thursday March 09, 2017 @03:24AM (#13827926)
From the link:

"While this study didn’t track the women’s eating and movement habits away from the lab, it is likely that those who gained weight began eating more and moving less when they weren’t on the treadmills, “probably without meaning to,” Dr. Gaesser said."

Expending more calories via exercise increases one's weight when you eat more calories than you burned. There's nothing new there.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by prostoalex on Thursday March 09, 2017 @12:15PM (#13830741)
The number of studies where participants ate less, engaged in more exercise and consistently lost weight is 0, though.

You'd think with a thesis this obvious it should be relatively easy to reproduce.

Hard to discuss the specifics of this exact experiment without knowing the details, but you have the control group that admits they have a weight problem and honestly tries to lose weight by signing up for this experiment. All of a sudden they turn into a bunch of cheaters buying up passes to an all-you-can-eat buffet? Is every obese person walking around extremely weak-willed? Is every thin person you see meticulously tracking their caloric intake and output?

What about entire countries that have low obesity rates? Are French or Koreans strong-willed at national level, consistently under-eating and over-exercising?

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by sn9 on Thursday March 09, 2017 @06:07PM (#13834703)
The number of studies that you're personally aware of may be zero. I'm not confident in your knowledge of the state of research when you missed the fact that they didn't even track diet in the study you linked to prove your thesis.

There are thousands of examples online of people who've lost weight and maintained that weight loss, not to mention the thousands of people who manipulate their weight at will to compete in events with weight classes.

Studies about diet and exercise are usually poorly designed and poorly funded, so they don't always accurately reflect reality and the existence of thousands of successes isn't invalidated by a poorly run study. Nor is our knowledge of basic physiology.

Rule of thumb: any study that relies on self-reporting diets is basically useless. It's not about lying. People are just really bad at measurement unless they explicitly measure every gram of food that enters their mouth. Intentions don't affect the quality of an implementation if you don't know how to implement something successfully. People who are underweight tend to eat less than they think and people who are overweight tend to eat more than they think.

Note that studies in which the number of calories a person consumes are tracked by the researchers leave no ambiguity in the direct relationship between the number of calories a person consumes and how their weight changes.

Distilling these issues into one of willpower is just incredibly misguided IMO and reflective more of the views of journalists who struggle with their weight and pass on the results of poorly designed studies. I addressed what I thought was a better way of looking at these issues in another comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13827878

It's not as though Americans have "lost willpower" over the course of a couple generations. We just started eating more and moving less.

Why we started eating more isn't a mystery. Agriculture and food companies started processing food to be less satiating and more addictive by adding sugar and fat to sell more (a massive simplification of history, admittedly). Obesity wasn't an epidemic back when we were eating whole foods since they're so much more satiating and it's difficult to maintain a caloric surplus on a diet of lentils and vegetables or whatever.

As countries like France, China, Japan, and others who have more recently maintained their normal weights on a population level get introduced to these processed Western foods, they too are seeing their rates of obesity, heart disease, and diabetes go up.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by prostoalex on Thursday March 09, 2017 @06:23PM (#13834822)
> The number of studies that you're personally aware of may be zero.

That is correct. I am happy to fill that knowledge gap, though, if you have any links handy.

> studies in which the number of calories a person consumes are tracked by the researchers leave no ambiguity in the direct relationship between the number of calories a person consumes and how their weight changes

Can you point me to those?

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by sn9 on Wednesday March 15, 2017 @10:39PM (#13881974)
I don't really keep a list of the studies I read, but Examine.com is a great resource for people without the scientific background and training in reading the research literature.

These two links are great starting points, and link to the studies if you feel like reading them:

https://examine.com/nutrition/what-should-i-eat-for-weight-l...

https://examine.com/nutrition/does-metabolism-vary-between-t...

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by buzzybee on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:45PM (#13825594)
It could be a number of things:

* Your gut biome might need a "reset". Sometimes people experience extended weight gain after antibiotics because they ended up with a different, less effective biome. (Soylent might also contribute to this issue.)

* Another health issue changed your digestive process

* You're losing muscle mass, making it easier to gain fat

* You're sleeping more poorly or are more stressed

Calorie counting really isn't sufficient to know what's going on with weight changes. The factors are numerous.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by sn9 on Thursday March 09, 2017 @03:22AM (#13827911)
If calorie counting is dead simple for you, then that must mean you know precisely how much you're consuming.

If you're gaining 10-15lbs per year, then you know how much you're overconsuming. An annual gain of 15 lbs * 3500 Calories per pound of fat is about 150 Calories per day over your TDEE.

Reduce your daily caloric intake by 250-500 Calories and you should see weight loss over the long term.

If not, and you actually do know exactly how many calories you're consuming and have been tracking your weight to see how it changes, then you need to see a physician.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by piva00 on Thursday March 09, 2017 @07:22AM (#13828774)
So drop more calories, you are still eating above what you are expending. Like I said in another comment: our bodies aren't supernatural things that ignore thermodynamics, it's impossible for your body to create fat without spare energy consumed.

I have dropped weight only through calories counting, I've done cycles of bulk/cut while weightlifting, dropping weight boils down to "calories in -> calories out", we might not have a very good model of this, we might be overlooking a multitude of variables that control energy expenditure but we can't create fat from nowhere, we need to consume and have spare energy to store it.

It's not easy but it is simple. Again: I'm not saying our models for calculating TDEE or how energy restriction affects our body completely but if you are expending more calories than you are eating you are going to consume fat to create energy.

Try this: drop how many calories you are eating by another 100~200kcal/day for a week, see if the trend changes (a moving average works). If not, drop another 100~200kcal/day and watch for a week. Being STRICT is the "not easy" part.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by ramchip on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:42PM (#13825569)
Either you need to tweak your calorie limit down (it's above what your body needs for maintenance, which varies from person to person), or you're forgetting to count some items.

It may be hard to limit calories without feeling hungry on a mostly soylent diet. Salad and veggies make it easier because they're low on calories, but still have a lot of bulk which helps stave off hunger.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by atopuzov on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:27PM (#13825422)
Have you tried keto? Works for me™
Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by mjfl on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:29PM (#13825444)
Fat is approximately 3500 calories per pound. If you are gaining 15 pounds per year you are overeating by 3500x15/365 calories per day. If you would like to instead lose 30 pounds per year, reduce your caloric intake per day by 3500x15/365x3 = 432 calories/day.
Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by falcolas on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @09:55PM (#13826534)
Once you cutout the obvious high calorie culprits like sugar, 400 calories is a pretty decent sized, healthy meal. Cutting out a meal a day is really hard to do. Hunger sucks, and had a lot of negative impacts on the rest of your day.
Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by mjfl on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @10:30PM (#13826703)
Yes, losing 30 pounds in a year will involve skipping about 1 meal per day and is not easy at all actually.
Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by akurnids on Thursday March 09, 2017 @05:48PM (#13834562)
(Anecdotally) It gets easier as time goes on, and you can use intermittent fasting [1] to halve the amount of days with restriction and still maintain a net loss.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13825676

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by sn9 on Thursday March 09, 2017 @03:13AM (#13827884)
Or you could just eat more low calorie and nutrient dense vegetables to be satiated at a lower calorie count.
Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by Merad on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @08:02PM (#13825750)
I'll be the last to say that weight management is easy - I've fought the battle my whole life - but if you eat less calories than your body burns, you will lose weight. The hard part is doing it consistently over the long run. Things I would ask, are (I'm not necessarily asking you to answer, just think about the answers):

* Are you actually tracking your calories with something like MyFitnessPal? What's your calorie intake?

* Are you tracking honestly? Especially if/when you have a bad day, or cheat day, or whatever you want to call it.

* Are you tracking accurately? If you aren't using a scale or measuring cup, the answer is probably no. Most people severely underestimate the size of their portions.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by smogcutter on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:30PM (#13825457)
Consider seeing a doctor or dietician (not a "nutritionist".) All else being equal if you consume fewer calories than you burn you'll lose weight, end of story. So if your weight is staying the same... sounds worth finding out if all else isn't equal. Probably also worth consulting a professional before replacing 100% of your diet with soylent.
Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by prostoalex on Thursday March 09, 2017 @12:48AM (#13827288)
> if you consume fewer calories than you burn you'll lose weight, end of story

You can control the input in that equation, but on the output the body is quick to go into calorie preservation state any time the balance goes negative. Lack of energy, irritability, mid-day fatigue, general weakness, mild headaches - the list goes on.

In an ideal world everyone runs marathons while sustaining themselves on water and celery sticks. In reality maintaining consistent caloric deficit while trying to remain a functional member of the society is challenging.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by lacampbell on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:46PM (#13825601)
I'd honestly experiment with fasting and skipping meals. I think you're just conditioned to eat way too many calories.

A day fast is really not that bad IMO. I used to do them every sunday and found it a really effective tool to get from "obese" to "overweight" (BMI). Got much less effective as I approached "normal" though.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by revelation on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:36PM (#13825524)
Well, are you calorie counting and have been for a while? If you are not losing over a span of months, you are probably not burning as much as you estimate to do.
Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by kittiepryde on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:30PM (#13825450)
If that's accurate, you need to go see a doctor very soon. Something is likely very wrong.
Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by Aloha on Thursday March 09, 2017 @12:26AM (#13827202)
Have your thyroid checked.