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Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by mikeash on Friday March 03, 2017 @09:44PM (#13788854)
When you "know" the message is wrong but the messenger won't shut up about it, these things start to sound like a good idea.
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by findateamfirst on Friday March 03, 2017 @10:59PM (#13789158)
When on Earth did anti science trolls take such a prominent role in HN? It's not hard for me to imagine a misinformation campaign run against HN, because I can't really understand how someone technical could countenance anti climate change ideas.
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by Analemma_ on Friday March 03, 2017 @11:05PM (#13789178)
You can come up with reasons to justify anything, once you're motivated by ideology. Being "more technical" sadly really only means that the justifications you come up with are more technical-sounding.
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by js2 on Friday March 03, 2017 @11:30PM (#13789273)
mikeash was being sarcastic.
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by davesque on Saturday March 04, 2017 @02:03AM (#13789720)
I'm fairly certain he was being sarcastic.
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by exclusiv on Saturday March 04, 2017 @12:12AM (#13789411)
If you've done any sort of computer modeling, it's pretty easy to understand why technical people would have doubts. It's pretty easy to do it wrong and it's pretty easy to make it look right. Anyway, questioning is science and the debate is more about whether the sky is falling, whether man is primarily responsible, and if so what the next steps should be. So you can acknowledge that deforestation contributes to global warming as an example while being skeptical of the claims and modeling the environmentalists make.
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by exclusiv on Saturday March 04, 2017 @02:24AM (#13789796)
This also doesn't help ease concerns with those that are skeptical of many reports and models:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/feb/5/climate-chang...

> “Gradually, in the months after [the report] came out, the evidence kept mounting that Tom Karl constantly had his ‘thumb on the scale’ — in the documentation, scientific choices, and release of datasets — in an effort to discredit the notion of a global warming hiatus and rush to time the publication of the paper to influence national and international deliberations on climate policy,” Mr. Bates said Saturday on Climate Etc.

> “What John Bates has done is to expose this culture based not on robust science, but on promoting an agenda,” Mr. Pielke said in a comment on Climate Etc. “Regardless of one’s views on policies, the scientific method should not be hijacked as they have done.”

Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by digitalzombie on Saturday March 04, 2017 @04:22AM (#13790104)
It's an allegation base on evidence and report with no source.

The news article if you can call that, sources the Daily UK Mail as a source.

> Possible artifacts of data biases in the recent global surface warming hiatus,

There is no smoking gun. It's a hear say from one person or two.

Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by exclusiv on Saturday March 04, 2017 @04:35AM (#13790130)
Bates is an insider source as is Roger Pielke. We'll find out more as the investigation unfolds. There's more to this lack of discipline to scientific methods as they push for policy changes and their own agenda.

> Another prominent climate scientist, the University of Colorado’s Roger A. Pielke Sr., said Mr. Bates‘ experience was “consistent with my experiences” with Mr. Karl on the Climate Change Science Program in 2005.

Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by digitalzombie on Saturday March 04, 2017 @04:16AM (#13790091)
These modeling are base statistic which takes into account random errors.

Just cause you did computer modeling doesn't grant you magic power to understand machine learning or the vast swarth of area in statistic, mathematical modeling, etc...

And it certainly doesn't give you power over the dozen of experts in different fields that spend their whole lives in it and saying global warming is a thing.

If you're so skeptic about "computer modeling", then why google, apple, and many other are banking on Machine Learnin such as Neural Network?

The foundation of data science, some argue, is computational statistic. Which falls under this so call computer modeling you're bringing up.

Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by exclusiv on Saturday March 04, 2017 @04:48AM (#13790169)
I never said it grants you magic power to understand machine learning. You're putting that in my mouth.

What I was putting forth was an understanding on why some techies may be skeptical of the computer modeling which is the evidence of AGW and the near immediate doom and gloom. Machine learning is not infallible. We're very much in the infancy. And all of a sudden scientists are experts at modeling the sun, earth, moon, currents, etc? This is not social network / ad network / ecommerce optimization we are talking about.

Of course the models account for random errors but they also include a lot of assumptions. You can doctor any model to fit your agenda.

Computer models and neural networks have incredible potential and application, but to suggest that everyone should accept these models of the universe from scientists as if they are infallible makes no sense.

Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by jon_richards on Friday March 03, 2017 @09:53PM (#13788891)
If you spend too long trying to convince someone there's a problem, then you are the problem.
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by ajmurmann on Friday March 03, 2017 @10:20PM (#13788995)
If I'm not mistaken than the vast majority globally is convinced of man made climate change being an issue. The holdouts primarily seem to be a subset of US Americans. There is disagreement on what a fair solution would look like but the vast majority agrees on the problem.
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by mhneu on Friday March 03, 2017 @10:40PM (#13789080)
But close the loop - the reason US Americans don't believe in climate change is because energy companies have paid politicians and fringe scientists to deny climate change. Why do energy companies care? Because climate change mitigation would cost them a lot of money.
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by mikeash on Friday March 03, 2017 @10:46PM (#13789103)
It's not just that. There's a religious component to it (only God can alter the Earth so dramatically, or Jesus is returning soon so it doesn't matter, or similar) as well as an ideological component (mitigating climate change can't be done with laissez-faire approaches).

At this point, it's self-reinforcing. One of our two major political parties has climate change denial as a fundamental part of its identity. Lots of people vote for that party because they share that belief. Those who benefit from that party's success are then motivated to spread that belief even further just to recruit more voters to the cause. And as that belief solidifies among their voters, the party becomes unable to change its position no matter how convincing the facts become.

Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by mirimir on Saturday March 04, 2017 @12:58AM (#13789542)
That does seem to be the case. So I wonder what will happen when facts render their position entirely untenable. It reminds me of the fight to regulate tobacco companies. That took decades of solid evidence.
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by Esau on Saturday March 04, 2017 @08:45AM (#13790859)
This here is indeed the real problem - corporations who are so unethical that they would damage the entire world in order to make some cash.

These are the people who Trump wants to set free of all regulation.

Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by daxorid on Friday March 03, 2017 @10:39PM (#13789076)
Let us be honest: no they are not convinced. If they were legitimately terrified of existential disaster >400ppm, they would be IMMEDIATELY limiting industrial production and investing MASSIVELY into carbon sequestration and renewables. The fact that ALL NATIONS take half-hearted and half-assed measures to confront what the pro-AGW crowd paints as an extinction risk demonstrably contradicts your claim that "the vast majority globally is convinced".
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by intended on Friday March 03, 2017 @11:25PM (#13789259)
No that's not true, and it's another tiresome argument based on first order armchair logic sans application of actual subject related experience/knowledge.

Environmental diplomacy is hard, and made much harder by the fact that most tools to stop pollution require such massive cuts to industrialization (and western pollution first) that most countries can't afford to enact what is needed.

So we have had the weak predecessor of Kyoto, and then the even weaker Kyoto protocol. Which has been followed by nothing.

This just means that people are willing to play the game of lying to their populations and voters, who can't care or understand the issues because they have other existential problems to deal with.

Distributed responsibility is another name for "not my problem".

Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by mikeash on Friday March 03, 2017 @10:41PM (#13789081)
Collective action problems are not that easy to solve, no matter how dire the consequences of failure.
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by the8472 on Saturday March 04, 2017 @12:38AM (#13789488)
Did collective action not work for solving the hitler problem?
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by ajmurmann on Saturday March 04, 2017 @01:57AM (#13789700)
Taking down Hitler just needed one force to take down Hitler. We didn't need to convince the majority that Hitler needs to be taken down and agree on how to do it. There also was no competitive advantage to be won by preventing this from happening. If I keep my pollution deregulated on there other hand I have a big competitive advantage over everyone who does. Very different problem.
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by rohamg on Saturday March 04, 2017 @11:40AM (#13791599)
Not until it was almost too late.
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by dragonwriter on Saturday March 04, 2017 @12:49AM (#13789517)
>The fact that ALL NATIONS take half-hearted and half-assed measures to confront what the pro-AGW crowd paints as an extinction risk demonstrably contradicts your claim that "the vast majority globally is convinced".

Its actually not; even if it is an extinction risk, if a meaningful difference in risk can't be made absent collective action, you have a massive tragedy of the common problem in which individual states are incentivized to do as little as possible, except what is necessary to signal that they would be open to serious action if there was an agreement on collective action.

Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by CamperBob2 on Saturday March 04, 2017 @12:41AM (#13789496)
The fact that ALL NATIONS take half-hearted and half-assed measures to confront what the pro-AGW crowd paints as an extinction risk

That's part of the problem. There is no "extinction risk," at least with regard to human life, and anyone who says differently is either misinformed or lying. In the latter case, it's easy to argue that they have an economic agenda that has nothing to do with climate.

Either way, such absurd exaggerations make it hard to sell the real truth, which is that AGW appears to be a legitimate problem that demands action.

Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by Analemma_ on Friday March 03, 2017 @10:02PM (#13788929)
This is one of those comments that sounds profound if you give it a cursory glance, but actually makes no sense whatsoever.
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by jon_richards on Saturday March 04, 2017 @09:16AM (#13790956)
I may have butchered the quote a little bit (not a famous quote, just something told to me once).

"If you spend too long convincing someone of a problem they can't see, they start to see you as the problem" gets the meaning better. It doesn't mean to give up, it just means that you are making yourself their enemy and thus probably making it harder to get your message across (look at the studies on showing scientific evidence to anti-vaxxers).

Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by mirimir on Friday March 03, 2017 @10:05PM (#13788942)
Oh come on, sure it makes sense.

It means that you failed to communicate effectively. Or that communicating to them was not an effective strategy.

Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by Apes on Friday March 03, 2017 @10:18PM (#13788991)
Or the person you are communicating to has a conflict of interest and has a strong incentive to feign ignorance. Usually referred to as being "corrupt" for short.
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by mirimir on Friday March 03, 2017 @10:33PM (#13789049)
In that case, "communicating to them was not an effective strategy".
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by mikeash on Friday March 03, 2017 @10:41PM (#13789087)
"Their strategy is not effective" is quite different from "they are the problem."

Anyway, what would you propose that they do?

Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by mirimir on Friday March 03, 2017 @10:51PM (#13789126)
If B is ignoring A, for whatever reason, then A can talk to others. Or more generally, do whatever it takes to workaround B.
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by mikeash on Friday March 03, 2017 @10:54PM (#13789134)
A does talk to others. It still hasn't worked, and now B is trying really hard to make A stop telling everybody about this stuff.
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by mirimir on Friday March 03, 2017 @11:01PM (#13789167)
So A has to get rid of B, or make them irrelevant.
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by mikeash on Friday March 03, 2017 @11:04PM (#13789176)
How? B has all the power. It's easy to say "get rid of them" but how do you actually do it?
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by mirimir on Friday March 03, 2017 @11:30PM (#13789272)
Maybe B has overwhelming power now. But if B's position is untenable, that will eventually become apparent. And yes, that may take far too long to be of any good.
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by tremon on Saturday March 04, 2017 @09:08AM (#13790927)
But if B's position is untenable, that will eventually become apparent.

Sure. That's why B is investing heavily in its military.

Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by mirimir on Saturday March 04, 2017 @06:34PM (#13793523)
I thought that this subthread was about US politics. That's so knife-edge that it could flip in four years. But yes, if the US goes full-moron, and takes a military approach to climate mitigation, all bets are off :(
Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by jon_richards on Saturday March 04, 2017 @12:30AM (#13789469)
I see this was taken quite negatively. The point isn't that you _actually are_ the problem, the point is that you need to realize that they start to _see_ you as a problem.

It means you have to consider what the other person is thinking and not just think "If I just keep telling them and showing them the facts, they'll see the light and come around to my side." Studies have shown that when you show scientific evidence to anti-vaxxers, they reject it and become more entrenched in their beliefs.

Re:White House proposes steep budget cut to NOAA by mikeash on Saturday March 04, 2017 @02:35PM (#13792523)
I understood the comment as saying that if you can't get your point across after a certain amount of time, it's your own fault. Thanks for clarifying, it makes much more sense now.