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Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by tvanantwerp on Friday February 24, 2017 @10:17AM (#13724352)
From a policy standpoint, it would be a nightmare to define automation to be taxed. What counts as automation? Should I be taxed when I say "OK Google, remind me to blah blah blah", which theoretically negates the need for me to hire a human assistant to whom I would dictate? Should I be taxed for using a spam filter to sort through my emails and discard the junk for me? Where, precisely, would policymakers be able to draw a clear line between "tax this automation" and "don't tax this automation"?
Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by svantana on Friday February 24, 2017 @10:29AM (#13724482)
Exactly, and nevermind the automation that has been taking place in the last 5000 years or so. Gutenberg's printing press displaced the monks who manually copied bibles -- should printing presses be taxed to parity with human labor, so that printing one page of a magazine costs $100? I find it bizarre that a guy as bright as Gates would support such an unworkable idea.
Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by cjlars on Friday February 24, 2017 @02:33PM (#13726914)
The problem, if there ends up being one, is the speed of displacement. People worry that too much downward pressure on so called 'middle class' jobs will create another 30 year stretch of zero wage growth for a big part of the population, which in turn puts a lot of political pressure on the system to 'do something'.

Very hard to say if that will come true though, if automation dramatically speeds up, we would see a surge in productivity. Yet in recent years, we are seeing slower, rather than faster productivity growth relative to the long term trend. Take note that the doomsday jobs predictions implicitly forecast that we'll be making more stuff, using less effort, meaning society will be richer.

From a tax policy perspective, a VAT addresses Gate's concerns pretty well.

Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by Old_Thrashbarg on Friday February 24, 2017 @12:30PM (#13725656)
Right it would hypocritical to only apply the tax to new automation. To be fair, we'd have to tax tractors, ATMs and calculators too.
Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by mcguire on Friday February 24, 2017 @10:43AM (#13724632)
I rather suspect that "taxed to parity with human labor" is heavily overstating the actual suggestion.
Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by cjlars on Friday February 24, 2017 @02:40PM (#13726990)
A VAT addresses this issue pretty well since it taxes the value add nature of both automation and human labor. If we need to subsidize human labor in order to smooth out the disruption effects of mass automation, then expanding the earned income tax credit with the proceeds from a VAT would work to subsidize the human labor at the cost of mechanical labor in a relatively efficient manner. Since it ties all payments to a specific social security number, there's less concern about politicians playing favorites, micromanaging the system, buying votes with policy, etc.
Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by Spivak on Friday February 24, 2017 @10:27AM (#13724460)
Would you consider taxing automation in current industries with high structural unemployment for the purposes of giving displaced workers the resources to change careers?

Or more general if a person or group of people are let go because their jobs were automated then that automation is taxed for X number of years for the same reason.

Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by nieksand on Friday February 24, 2017 @01:26PM (#13726207)
What if I launch a new fast food franchise that uses automation from the start?

I never had employees so nobody is being let go. Your proposal would give me a massive advantage against incumbents like McDonalds, since they'd be trapped with either high labor or high tax costs.

Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by 6d6b73 on Friday February 24, 2017 @10:29AM (#13724493)
What if that industry is automated because the jobs are dangerous? What if it's automated because having robots do the job allows for more precision, which in turn can save lives (ie medical devices)?
Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by Spivak on Friday February 24, 2017 @11:33AM (#13725107)
I don't think it's fair to try split the issue into 'good' and 'bad' automation because in either case there is a displaced worker that needs more resources to change careers than unemployment can provide.

If we're going to live up to the expectation that automation will free up labor to work on more useful things then that labor has to have mobility and access to education.

Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by fxj on Friday February 24, 2017 @10:23AM (#13724419)
Taxing robots is easy. Just tax every company with a fixed amount and then give them a tax rebate when they employ humans.
Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by svantana on Friday February 24, 2017 @10:32AM (#13724522)
You didn't tax robots, you just increased corporate tax and lowered tax on salaries. Not saying it's a bad idea, but you're affecting lots of other things than robots with that proposal.
Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by pc86 on Friday February 24, 2017 @10:46AM (#13724660)
Well the US has the highest corporate tax rate in the OECD and the third highest in the world[0] so I would think claims to raise it have a pretty high burden of proof.

[0] http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/sep/09/...

Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by xiphias on Friday February 24, 2017 @11:17AM (#13724953)
Actually I think that would be the best solution..just get rid of taxation of people working, which is an incentive for companies not to hire people (and for people to prefer unemployment with its problems and benefits).
Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by occamrazor on Friday February 24, 2017 @03:14PM (#13727423)
The money raised from those taxes needs to come from somewhere else though. Possibilities include taxes on consumption (sales tax or VAT), capital gain, corporate profits, property, etc. Each of these has advantages and disadvantages.
Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by fxj on Friday February 24, 2017 @10:37AM (#13724575)
It would tax robots AND have other effects. But what is the reason for the taxation of robots? More (human) people should get jobs and money to spend.
Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by nubol on Friday February 24, 2017 @10:45AM (#13724638)
"More human people should get jobs!"

Do you mean that the final goal is to end with the automation? Or do you mean new jobs generated because the transformation of the industries?

Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by fxj on Friday February 24, 2017 @10:50AM (#13724688)
No i think automation is good. But the distribution of the profits from automation is completely a mess.

The population needs money that they can spend for the companies to make profit. So either a taxation like this or a universal income, else the flow of money (and goods and services) is stalled.

Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by nubol on Monday February 27, 2017 @03:40AM (#13742823)
If you think the automation is good, I guess one of the reasons is because it improves efficiency, then why to incentive a company to hire more humans?

Should a company be also subsidized by the government if it's reducing work accidents and reduces energy consumption(when introducing automation)? That subsidies would need to be payed by taxes from companies and citizens.

In my opinion the solution should not be to employ humans when a machine can do the job more efficiently, and introducing a new tax it could counter incentivize a company to introduce automation and that's exactly the opposite of whats desired. Since to introduce a new technology requires an investment and therefore risks for the company owners.

I think that once it is reached a point that it generates net unemployment, something that has not been the case for previous industrial revolutions, people should be able to reach products and production capacity at lower costs, so to be able to make a living being employed less hours.

Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by 6d6b73 on Friday February 24, 2017 @11:01AM (#13724801)
These profits you talk about are not from automation but from product or service. You could tax companies specializing in automation, but how do you define who to tax? If software an automation based product?

Taxation won't work, for many reasons. Universal income/welfare system has it's own share of problems, but so far that's the only solution that could be somehow made workable.

Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by logfromblammo on Friday February 24, 2017 @01:14PM (#13726077)
If you don't tax the robot, the owner of it ends up with as much control over the economy as all those displaced workers formerly had. Economic production shifts, and no longer produces sufficient quantities of inexpensive food and housing.

The global economy is based on human desires. Whatever is sold in the market is available because someone, somewhere will buy it, using their own productive capacity in trade. Money is used as an intermediary in those trades, to resolve the inefficiencies of direct barter or triangle trading.

So you can imagine world demand as the sum of all human desires. But it isn't a direct sum. It's a weighted sum. The contribution of your desires to world demand is weighted by your productive capacity. If you can make 100 shoes per day, you can buy twice as much as someone who only makes 50 per day. And that difference in productive capacity means that if you prefer chicken to beef, and the slower shoemaker prefers beef to chicken, a farmer trying to decide whether to build a cattle feedlot or a poultry barn is more likely to choose the latter.

It is a complex system that constantly rebalances itself with feedback loops.

If someone else builds a robot that makes 10000 shoes per day, and puts all the human shoemakers out of business, their economic power is voided (in the short run). The robot owner prefers pork, so those farmers are (eventually) going to abandon their cattle lots and poultry barns and erect luxury swine barns instead. Production shifts to meet the desires of the productive.

The shoemakers have to learn to make something else, quick, or they starve. Maybe they switch to making hats. Oops! Another robot made 99% of those jobs obsolete. They switch to ditch-digging. Oops! A robot made 99% of those jobs obsolete. They switch to shirtmaking. Oops! A robot took 99% of those jobs. They switch to making bicycles. Oops! Another robot. The only way to leap ahead of the employment disaster wave is to build a robot that destroys a job that still exists. Then you get to be in the owner class.

If you can replace a human's job, displacing them on the supply side, you can take their entire measure of economic output from the demand side. But you only have one body with one stomach, so you don't need more than one bed and food for one person. Even if you buy the very best bed ever made, and eat the very finest food available, you still can't down a bushel of corn every day by yourself, and the people who formerly divided it up between themselves can no longer afford to buy it. Prices drop, until things can no longer be sold above marginal cost, and those things vanish from the market.

The robots themselves have no desires. They "want" only power, maintenance, and a depreciation schedule. If they had free will, they would be the ones growing super-rich, and ruining the economy because the things they make are not things that robots "want". A shoe-making robot does not wear shoes. So if everyone who wears shoes is displaced, the shoes the robot makes can no longer be effectively exchanged for power and maintenance due to market saturation. So it shuts down, except for the one hour per year that it needs to run to make shoes for the machine technicians and the power grid operators. Until one day, a machine appears that performs machine maintenance, and the shoe machine turns on only a few minutes per decade.

So the reason you have to tax the robots is because they don't desire enough in relation to what they can produce. Those robots have to be implanted with sufficient surrogate desires that those desires, on average, entirely consume the productive capacity of the robot. Otherwise, the production-weighted sum of desires collapses, and no one can get anything they want by producing something and trading it.

So the ideal tax to levy would be calculated by taking the entire production of the robot and subtracting the quantity of production required to fulfill the robot's needs and all of the owner's desires. Gross revenue minus operating cost minus owner consumption. Profit minus consumption. You end up with a tax on increase in personal wealth. So maybe don't tax the robot, but tax the owners in proportion to income, deducting their consumption spending (and net depreciation of personal assets).

If you take $1M/year in income, and spend $990k/year on caviar, beach vacations, hookers, yacht expenses, and parties, pay less tax than the guy making $200k/year and spending only $20k/year on ramen noodles, thrift shop clothes, and shoe leather. That consumption from the first guy flows back to the economy, whereas the savings from the second guy are temporarily sequestered, and may eventually become concentrated to the point that it becomes an economic black hole.

The money you tax needs to be dispersed as widely as possible. The money no longer represents production capacity, but becomes glorified Kanban coupons to allocate automated production resources effectively.

Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by 6d6b73 on Friday February 24, 2017 @10:26AM (#13724450)
How are you going to "fix" that amount? Does every hosting company must pay X amount of $? Or is it based on annual sales? If the latter, It should be fairly easy to open a new company after you reach your sales target.
Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by fxj on Friday February 24, 2017 @10:31AM (#13724511)
Tax them e.g. 50% of their revenue. And give them a tax rebate that is the sum of the salary for the human employees. That would be a big incentive to employ humans and still they can make good profit.
Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by 6d6b73 on Friday February 24, 2017 @10:35AM (#13724559)
Revenue is not profit. Just because company brings a lot of revenue does not mean they can afford to hire people. This would essentially make it pointless to own a company.
Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by fxj on Friday February 24, 2017 @10:42AM (#13724615)
It would be like a VAT. Every company would have to pay it. So it levels the field.
Re:Why taxing robots is not a good idea by 6d6b73 on Friday February 24, 2017 @10:50AM (#13724690)
No, not every company. Only companies in the country that taxes automation. Other, smarter, countries would skip that tax and end up with cheaper products. This whole "tax robots" idea would only end with higher prices for products, and it's the people that would have to pay these prices.