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Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by memracom on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @03:27AM (#13704075)
Predatory birds attack by dive-bombing. You won't see it coming even if you have an extra camera on the drome pointed upward. They also know how to dive out of the sun which means that they are invisible in the camera view. And their bones are irrelevant because the damage is done by their mass plus acceleration. Likely they are going to be flying with some kind of netting material that will tangle the blades as well.

And birds, even trained ones, might be considered expendable.

Not to mention that using birds does not mean that they will attack the drones. They might just find the drone and point out its position for a ground based missile or laser.

And people fighting against terrorist whose goal is to kill and maim people might be willing to sacrifice a few trained birds to stop the terrorist acts from succeeding.

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by owenversteeg on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @03:52AM (#13704158)
Missile? Laser? That's insane. As someone who's worked on UAVs quite a bit, the only thing I'd consider taking them out with - in a situation which necessitated it, like a terrorist attack - is guns. Laser systems would be completely unrealistic for this situation, and using missiles would be absolutely overkill.

A predatory bird dive bombing a drone would also not be something I'd bet on. Sure, I have confidence they could evade traditional cameras. But once they hit the UAV, what happens? The bird would almost certainly be killed or maimed by the propellers, and the drone would fly fine. If the creators of the drone spent just $100 extra or so on decent propellers, the drone would easily survive the attack.

Using birds with no extra weapons against drones would only work in case of extremely stupid drone creators, and would probably result in at least one seriously injured or killed bird per drone.

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by seszett on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @05:40AM (#13704543)
An eagle like in this case is orders of magnitude more powerful than the kind of drone being talked about, though. Not armed military drones, obviously, but these are not the target.

A mass of 4 kilograms or so diving at several hundred km/h will do a lot of damage, keep in mind these birds kill adult deers. They're also used to avoiding the dangerous parts of the animals they attack and fast bird vision gives them a better view of rotors than the indistinct blur humans see. At 10000 rpm or so, birds of prey should actually be able to follow the movement of blades.

They also have more lifting power than most drones, which means they are absolutely able to wrestle them to the ground if the initial impact doesn't knock them off (especially since they will have a far better understanding of what's going on than the drone's operator).

I am as tempted as anyone to think that I am smarter than professionals I read about in the news, but I'm pretty sure these guys have thought their experiment through.

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by owenversteeg on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @06:24AM (#13704707)
Ehh. Orders of magnitude, plural? Several hundred km/h? That's a stretch. These are golden eagles, my favorite kind of bird. Their diving speed is around 220-250 km/hr, and their horizontal speed is around 40 km/hr. They will speed up horizontally to catch prey, but this is typically only up to about 90 km/hr.

I've seen UAVs kill birds before though, and it's always a horrifying scene, reminiscent of the plucky character in a dystopian sci-fi movie meeting the all-powerful violent crusher of doom. Moderately powerful UAVs can easily resist birds. Even an off the shelf DJI Phantom 4 can - with stock everything - go 72 km/hr horizontally. I'd bet the eagle could catch up to it, however: the problem comes when the bird meets drone.

Every bird-drone incident I've seen is usually an instant kill (or comes close) for the drone, simply because most of the surface area of the drone is covered by four spinning propellers. The tips of these blades are going several hundred miles per hour, and the area of the top not covered by blades is only a few square centimeters covered in smooth, hard to grip plastic. Now you're telling me that a huge bird (that has a wingspan longer than most humans are tall) can grab onto this tiny place without becoming mincemeat? If the blades are carbon fiber, there's a good chance they won't break upon cutting the bird in half.

I've worked with drones enough to know what will and won't stop them. A bird won't: it'll brush the blades and fall to the ground in a bloody mess. A bullet will. Bullets are tried and true technology, we know how to use them, they're not ridiculously expensive, and they will certainly take down any drone of reasonable size.

This is PR, plain and simple. There's no other explanation for it, unless France's air force is hilariously incompetent, which I would doubt.

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by kriro on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @07:40AM (#13705018)
Here's a bird vs a slow cruising drone. The attack style seems decent enough to avoid the rotors depending on size.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr-xBtVU4lg

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by y4mi on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @10:36AM (#13706240)
this is a hobbyist drone, not a militarized one.

you can see that the blades got damaged because they're cheap plastic, perfectly fine if you just want to shoot some videos from an aerial pov. if you want to use your drone offensively you'd use a) a swarm of drones, b) a significantly stronger one or c) a swarm of hardened drones.

as the parent mentioned: the rotors become brutal weapons if you make them from carbon fiber or cheaper but still durable material

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by Retric on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @10:42AM (#13706306)
At that point why build a drone, a missile is cheaper. The terrorist > drone link is all about off the shelf components.

Military drones like the predator weigh more than a car, and we have plenty of weapons built for that. Small off the shelf drones are not something you can really hit with a missile, but you can shoot them down fairly easily with a gun. However, you don't really want to fire up into the air in the middle of a domestic city, making birds a more interesting option.

PS: They don't need to disable the drone, simply adding 8lb of weight will take most of them down easily.

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by owenversteeg on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @11:28AM (#13706672)
You can build a great payload carbon fiber blade octocopter for $2000 or so and a few Youtube tutorials. Cheap carbon fiber blades can be $2 each! I wouldn't recommend using them if you care about safety, but on a single-flight mission they're perfectly fine. If you can get a missile (!) inside of metropolitan Paris for $2000 I would be very doubtful (as well as very concerned.)

There's also no way that a golden eagle can fly away with the drone: it'll definitely be taking it down too. A golden eagle has a payload of 900 grams. [0] Nine hundred grams! Videos of birds (typically not golden eagles) 'carrying' dogs or even goats for a half-second or so are because they perform a special swooping maneuver with their wings that lets them lift things up, taking advantage of the ground effect. There is no way this would work with a UAV, unless it was moving extremely slowly near the ground.

There are lots of people defending this PR piece because it sounds cool. This happens every time a new way to 'catch drones' comes out. Yes, golden eagles are extremely majestic. The reality however is that bullets are by far the best way to take down an unwanted UAV. Please, think about the realities of this: several hard blades going hundreds of mph is something you can only stop with a bullet. It doesn't matter if you put a super-suit on your eagles - at best, you'll just make the eagles die of internal bleeding instead.

Finally, if this UAV is flying over a city, it'll be very often above roofs/rivers/canals/etc where it's safe to crash. Give some special ops 20 minutes of training on shooting UAVs and a bullet, not a bunch of raptors that'll end up dead - that's the way to protect your city.

[0] https://raptorresource.blogspot.nl/2015/11/how-much-can-bald...

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by Retric on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @12:00PM (#13706983)
Area denial is a useful. Someone flying a drone at someone making a speech, a 747, or a football stadium then getting it to land in a parking lot is fine.

Anyway, you can build mortar's for under 100$. Rockets are a flexible terms, but 10 for under 20,000 is very possible. Importantly your drone needs to carry the box and what blows up where a rocket can be the box that blows up messing with your payload calculation.

PS: "Rockets red glare" refers to a mechanically simple devices that are still useful weapons.

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by voidlogic on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @11:23AM (#13706631)
>However, you don't really want to fire up into the air in the middle of a domestic city, making birds a more interesting option.

Shotguns with bird-shot would be effective and are comparatively low risk to bullets.

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by Retric on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @10:35AM (#13706226)
Golden eagles can do 320km/h in dives, normal flight is 45-52km/h but they can sustain around 129km/h horizontal flight for some time. Peregrine falcons have been clocked diving at 389km/h though 320 km/h is more typical. Thus, several hundred km/h is completely reasonable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_birds_by_flight_speed

As to rotors they can generally avoid them. However, this is just for off the shelf drones, you can build something that can get past them but it's a lot more effort.

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by owenversteeg on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @11:13AM (#13706552)
This has nothing to do with peregrine falcons, which are falcons, not eagles and are not being used here. Golden eagles do not usually go over 300 km/hr and 320km/hr is the _maximum speed_ they will hit. Saying 'several hundred', for something that is almost always in the 200s, is disingenuous. If someone has $2.75, I would not say they have 'several dollars'. But that gets into a discussion about if two is considered part of several and that is completely pointless.

In any case, they most certainly cannot 'generally' avoid rotors. I have seen birds of prey - as well as smaller birds - attack and/or collide with UAVs. I have never seen a bird escape uninjured except with a small quadcopter with plastic blades. If someone was orchestrating a terrorist attack they would obviously need some sort of payload, and would not be flying a palm-sized plastic-blade quadcopter.

I think eagles are cool and they're clearly majestic creatures. But using them to catch a set of spinning blades in the sky - when a bullet works just fine - is really stupid.

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by Retric on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @11:58AM (#13706970)
If something costs 2.75 it's common to say it costs several dollars. Now, you can be picky, but in common usage saying several hundred for 280-320 km/h is not wrong.

Anyway, birds learn so you can train them to avoid the blades. Shooting something near buildings is risky and loud even with buckshot. Birds can also follow terrain etc. So, while this is far from perfect it's not a terrible or useless idea.

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by kuschku on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @06:16AM (#13704678)
> Laser systems would be completely unrealistic for this situation

Rheinmetall has sold Laser systems to protect venues at the Olympics, World Cup and other large events for several years now – and their systems are used by several militaries on their bases and in the field for the same purpose.

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by tim333 on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @06:32AM (#13704745)
Here's a vid of a laser taking down a drone. Looks expensive compared to a shot gun though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5qKSKsfUPM&feature=youtu.be...
Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by knz on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @08:13AM (#13705164)
The problem with a shotgun is proximity. The effective range of most common shotguns (12 or 20 guage) is a lot closer than most people want to be to anything explosive that is on a trajectory towards you!

Punt guns (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun) could be an option but the range would still be limited and they aren't exactly portable.

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by lstroud on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @07:51AM (#13705062)
Seems like an air burst scatter shot weapon would be more effective. Something like a shotgun with explosive projectiles. Use the concussive blow to cause damage.
Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by sfifs on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @08:19AM (#13705211)
What goes up must come down gaining velocity in the process. This is exceedingly dangerous. Google for deaths from guns fired in the air at marriage parties / celebrations.
Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by gozur88 on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @05:04PM (#13709638)
So... anti-aircraft artillery, then? Or this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter_Rocket,_Artillery,_and...

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by knz on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @08:19AM (#13705209)
Maybe a modern version of a punt gun?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by saalweachter on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @07:46AM (#13705036)
The advantage of a not-gun is that you can use them around crowds.
Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by bayesian_horse on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @05:36AM (#13704524)
Apparently it works quite well, though.
Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by aanm1988 on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @01:45PM (#13708002)
> Missile? Laser? That's insane. As someone who's worked on UAVs quite a bit, the only thing I'd consider taking them out with - in a situation which necessitated it, like a terrorist attack - is guns. Laser systems would be completely unrealistic for this situation, and using missiles would be absolutely overkill.

Flak?

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by dkersten on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @09:39AM (#13705784)
Predatory birds attack by dive-bombing. You won't see it coming

So equip high end drones with other sensors that let the autopilot deal with the falcon attacks (ie don't rely on a human pilot for detecting and reacting to falcon attacks).

Also, put some anti-falcon-dive-bomb spikes on top of your drone ;-)

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by _coldfire on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @09:47AM (#13705849)
You don't need any tech to solve this problem. Simply buy two drones.

I'd estimate one falcon costing easily $100K annually, compared to a $300 consumer drone.

The entire concept is incredibly expensive, doesn't scale and comes with no guarantees, but is certainly loved by the media.

Radio signal hijacking and GPS jamming would solve virtually all non-military drone events. But companies pursuing this rarely get a single mention in the news for the actual advances being made in counter drone technology.

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by weberc2 on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @11:07AM (#13706501)
The scenario these address aren't two nation states going to war, one with eagles and the other with drones. The scenario is the once-per-decade terrorist attack, in which case losing an eagle or two to mitigate the attack is worthwhile.
Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by dtparr on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @11:32AM (#13706706)
> The scenario these address aren't two nation states going to war, one with eagles and the other with drones.

Was this as weird to type as it was to envision?

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by _coldfire on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @03:37PM (#13708934)
>solve virtually all non-military drone events

That's the same scenario I'm talking about. Overpowering the input signals is a proven, scalable defense that can be easily deployed to police forces, stadiums, national monuments across the world and for minimal cost. You simply will not be able to do that with a highly trained eagle.

Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by gozur88 on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @05:07PM (#13709661)
$100k per falcon per year? That seems a little high to me. In any case, governments have enough money to ignore these kinds of calculations.
Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by dkersten on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @10:12AM (#13706047)
True. When you look at it from a financial point of view, you are absolutely right. Drone is quite a bit cheaper than falcon, so...
Re:France’s military is training eagles to attack drones by Sunset on Friday February 24, 2017 @08:18AM (#13723346)
I will put a spike on it. Also I might just remotely detonate the drone. I can buy drones, training a falcon takes time.