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Re:Time to Take a Stand by anigbrowl on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:09PM (#13508812)
Lay off seeking justice for a while

Dude, I'm also European and I've spent 25 years listening to and debating with conservative people - in person, on the net, at academic gatherings and many other places. I have studied a wide variety of conservative philosophies and social groups. At what point are you OK with me drawing some conclusions, even temporary working conclusions that I might have to alter later?

When I hear comments like this, the overriding impression I have is that thinking about this stuff is rather new to you and you are hesitating out of uncertainty. But it's a mistake to assume that people with stronger opinions than your own have not put in the hours to think through the issues.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by Groxx on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:45PM (#13509130)
Valid, but I think it comes mostly from the loudest people being the ones that haven't done so. They're the ones that need attention, because they're driving so many personal attacks (which largely make people more extreme, not less).

As always, there are exceptions (like you). Which is broadly what the comment was claiming - Trump voters are not 100% made up of nazis, in essence.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by jacquesm on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:10PM (#13510141)
Germany wasn't 100% made up of Nazi supporters either. That didn't stop disaster.

A Trump voter that votes Trump because of some economic point also votes in support of all the other policies that Trump stands for and so carries fractional responsibility.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by Groxx on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:12PM (#13510156)
Sure. But it doesn't mean we condemn all Germans. Other threads in here are basically suggesting we confront every German we see about Hitler's atrocities. What will that accomplish?

edit: a good chunk of this is that all this sets up "damned if you do, damned if you don't, double-damned if you choose the winning side". This doesn't encourage more people to get involved, it just drives them away from trying. That's the exact opposite of what we need.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by jacquesm on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:26PM (#13510273)
The present day generation Germans is so far removed that that would make no sense. But it would have made sense prior to approximately 1935 or so.

Even then it probably was too late but who knows, maybe there would have been a way to push back against the brownshirts.

Historians are not in agreement on this subject, there is a school of thought that the whole thing might have been averted.

The main culprit (the treaty of Versailles) was a 'winner takes all' arrangement that sowed the seeds for WWII, Hitler merely tapped in to the resentment that was already there and managed to wreck Europe for two generations as a result of that. In the end Germany ended up much worse than where they started as a result of their 'Germany First' policy.

I think the main lesson learned here is that if the spoils from globalization aren't divided in a fair way there will be a huge backlash (predictable), unfortunately turning the clock back will result in yet another backlash.

These pendulum swings are way too fast and violent for society to adapt without damage.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by Groxx on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:47PM (#13510438)
So take the 1935 Germans. Confront them. Rant about how their decisions destroyed so much. Visibly encourage others to do the same.

Now what do you expect them to do when they're offered the chance to vote for two new candidates, neither of which they approve of? Personally, I expect them to run the other way, rather than voting.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by jacquesm on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:54PM (#13510490)
I think I already pointed out that by 1935 in Germany it probably was too late.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by Groxx on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:58PM (#13510521)
To late to correct that one, yes. But not too late to prevent the next one - that's what I'm arguing about. I'm saying that this sets up a negative bias for doing anything early enough when controversy pops up, which is at best not beneficial.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by jacquesm on Saturday January 28, 2017 @07:37PM (#13510771)
Yes, indeed. This goes for any course correction, the longer you wait the more extreme the correction will have to be until they are accurately described as 'violent'. The French Revolution comes to mind (not that that was such an example of exclusively positive change but it definitely was change).
Re:Time to Take a Stand by scrollaway on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:41PM (#13509558)
I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're saying here. Is this a reply to me or to the parent comment? Where do you see me make assumptions about how strong anyone's opinions are?
Re:Time to Take a Stand by anigbrowl on Saturday January 28, 2017 @07:52PM (#13510860)
This idea that you're too busy blaming people for being racist to spend time listening to them is honestly frightening.

When I call people out for being racist I assure it is not for want of having listened to them first. I'm absolutely in favor of listening to people, but there are also times when you need to firmly declare your opposition to their ideas and your intent to obstruct them.

Not all ideologies are morally equivalent, and I am opposed to any ideology that seeks to limit or reduce the rights of individual people in order to promote compliance with some abstract moral standard as opposed to some utilitarian one where you can demonstrate a harm exceeding a putative benefit.