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Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by markharper on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @05:28PM (#13422064)
There is nothing fake about the news coverage that CNN provides. It cannot be honestly or rationally equated with the fake news phenomenon that we saw on Facebook during the election.

Also, 538 was the most accurate model during the election. They were the only ones fighting against the narrative that it was a sure win for HC.

Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by ivraatiems on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:15PM (#13421270)
Why do you consider CNN fake news?

What about 538's data is suspect, given that it merely aggregates the data put out by a wide variety of other organizations (of all political bents)?

Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by gfosco on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:22PM (#13421333)
Because they keep publishing fake news, hiding inconvenient truths, and lying. They report any and all unverified anti-Trump rumors, no matter how ridiculous, but refuse to report fairly when legitimate accusations are made against others. I used to like CNN, but over the past 2 years they have embarrassed themselves terribly, and their ratings show it.
Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by ivraatiems on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:24PM (#13421354)
Can you give some examples of things they have published which are fake, or lies that have been exposed? Most of the cases where people have claimed this, it's been due to a critical failure to read the reporting CNN actually did.

For instance, in the recent case where Buzzfeed released a massively unsubstantiated intelligence "dossier," CNN reported that Buzzfeed had done it and that it had been given to Trump and Obama in a briefing. Those two pieces of information are important and valid to report. CNN never said the document was accurate and didn't itself publish it specifically because it's not verifiable. How is that "fake news?"

Edit: You also did not answer my second question.

Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by legostormtroopr on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:51PM (#13421662)
CNN said “it’s illegal to possess these stolen documents [the Hilary emails from wikileaks]. It’s different for the media. So everything you learn about this, you’re learning from us.”

Thats fake and a lie, and they were exposed quickly about that.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201...

Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by ivraatiems on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:52PM (#13421683)
Agreed. It's a lie, and a particularly boneheaded one.

Is that occurrence enough to conclude that all their reporting, on everything, is flawed? Because if so I think I could find similar examples from effectively any mainstream source, and any partisan (HuffPo, Breitbart, et.c) ones as well.

Who exactly should we trust when our criteria exclude everyone?

Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by gfosco on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @05:06PM (#13421856)
No one said everything they do is fake news. I said it would be hard to have confidence in the data. Yuge difference.
Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by ivraatiems on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @05:20PM (#13422002)
So there is reporting from CNN that you would trust? What reporting is that?
Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by meej on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @09:27PM (#13423483)
That is an opinion piece at one of the Washington Post's blogs, the Volokh Conspiracy, it is not a news article. Furthermore, the blog authors are not Post employees and they are editorially independent from the rest of the newspaper.
Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by freehunter on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @09:21AM (#13426425)
That being said, I strongly believe that reputable news sources should not publish unmoderated opinion blogs from their own domain. No matter how many times the page says "opinion" or "blog" or "unaffiliated", if it's published on their site, on their platform, on their domain, it's going to be equated with that news outlet.
Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by gfosco on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:54PM (#13421708)
February. False story about Carson dropping out. Their own "fact checker" lied about it.

August. CNN edits footage of sister of man shot by Milwaukee police to make it sound like she was calling for peace. She was calling for riots in white cities.

November. Random street interview? Nope, their own cameraman. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSfS2u-SmoI

Repeatedly and continually edits/mistates Trump remarks, not just on Muslims and Mexicans.

Repeatedly libels Assange with false statements about his charges.

"hands up don't shoot" never happened.

The list goes on and on, and your second question is irrelevant.

Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by ivraatiems on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:59PM (#13421782)
It's totally relevant to the conversation we were having about 538. You should answer it.
Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by gfosco on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @05:59PM (#13422311)
You asked for examples, I gave you examples and you disappeared.

My original post made an analogy about CNN. It has very little / nothing to do with 538. There, second question answered.

Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by Dobbs on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:42PM (#13421570)
I don't think you know what fake news is. It isn't biased news, its not incorrect news, or unsubstantiated rumors.

It is websites that steal CSS and styles from official news sites. That then create a fake news paper and publish 100% fiction. The Denver Guardian http://www.snopes.com/fbi-agent-murder-suicide/ is an example of "Fake News". Nothing published by CNN or FiveThirtyEight is fake news. Incorrect, sure, possibly biased but not "Fake News".

Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by gfosco on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @05:15PM (#13421956)
You don't get to redefine fake news. I'm a huge fan of real journalism, and the ethics and integrity behind it. When journalists fail those ethics and report things they haven't vetted, that is not news, it's fake news.
Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by ivraatiems on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @05:25PM (#13422047)
Sorry, no, your definition is the one that's wrong.[1]

[1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fake_news_website (links to numerous examples of proper usage)

Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by gfosco on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @05:56PM (#13422292)
"Fake news website" !== "Fake news" and Wikipedia is not the arbiter of all truth either.
Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by lukejduncan on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @02:02AM (#13424642)
Nope, definitely your definition that's wrong. One of many examples http://pca.st/VnJY
Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by gfosco on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @05:13PM (#13421938)
HN is hilarious. This post went to +4 before it went to -4. Downvotes weren't supposed to be for disagreement, or so I thought...
Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by soundwave106 on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @02:51AM (#13424812)
A) 538 was one of the few sources that actually gave Donald Trump a decent chance, and IMHO 538 is one of the few sources that was discussing about the limitations of traditional polling. A lot of other sources were more blindly trusting of the polls.

B) The data in the link contains data that is not just about politics. Data includes such non-political topics as, say, "Where Do People Drink The Most Beer, Wine And Spirits?" to "How Americans Like Their Steak".

"Fake news" has unfortunately become a convenient euphemism that usually means the person saying it doesn't like a particular site's political stance. Fine, but what do the above type statistical sets have to do with election politics in the first place?

C) To be honest, since the data sets actually are present, a "this is fake news" sort of post seems lazy. If you have issues with 538's reporting, dive into R and report on any issues you find. Or do you think all of these datasets are fake? That's a tall claim without proof.

Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by 09bjb on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:07PM (#13421197)
Yep. Beautifully wrought confirmations of bad hypotheses. After this election I'm taking anything stats-related on 538 (most everything) with a huge grain of salt. Can't stand another "Here's why the numbers show Hillary will win in a landslide" etc.
Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by labster on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:23PM (#13421342)
I'm pretty sure 538 were the only ones not predicting a strong EC victory for Hillary. And they kept mentioning how terrible the polls were in Wisconsin and Michigan, and that they had to interpolate based on national polls. And in the popular vote Hillary won by a landslide.

So this is a statistics package by the people who best interpreted the available evidence. Missing a 66% confidence forecast happens 1 out of every 3 times, it's not a big miss.

Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by ivraatiems on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:14PM (#13421261)
You do realize that of all the models available, 538's was the closest to the actual outcome and gave Trump by far the largest chance?

538 was very clear from the outset that the model's goal was predicting likelihoods, not being an oracle. It said there was a 1 in 3 chance of the election coming out like it did. That's not inaccurate - it was unlikely, but it still happened.

Plus, 538 didn't make the data. It aggregated data others made.

What exactly was bad in that hypothesis?

Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by jackhack on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:20PM (#13421320)
Compsci 101. Garbage in, garbage out.
Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by ivraatiems on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:24PM (#13421360)
The polls weren't garbage. They were closer this year than they were in 2012. They were just slightly wrong in the wrong direction.
Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by jackhack on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:41PM (#13421559)
It's not a pejorative. It's a common phrase meaning "the quality of your output is only as good as your input data".

In this case, input data was skewed/biased/inaccurate for a number of reasons (sample choices, underreporting, etc.). Thus even the best predictions were wrong.

Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by ivraatiems on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:44PM (#13421601)
That's true, but the trouble is that if you look back to past elections, those polls are also wrong in very similar ways. They were just wrong in a way that overemphasized the success of the right candidate, whereas polls this year were wrong in a way that suggested success for the wrong candidate. So the errors have existed for a long time, and in fact they were lesser this year than in previous years. Polls are getting better, not worse - but the narrative has become "never trust polls again because they were wrong" when the truth is closer to "learn lessons from the polls because they got close but made serious missteps."
Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by nl on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @09:28PM (#13423490)
It's not a pejorative.

It really kind of is actually. It's an implication that the output was garbage, and it clearly wasn't.

Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by kirrent on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:55PM (#13421722)
That's only an issue if you don't account for uncertainty in your polling data. If you ever read their articles or listened to the model talk podcast you'd know that a huge amount of effort was put into trying to quantify the uncertainty in the polls based on historical polling errors and factors unique to this year.
Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by nl on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:29PM (#13421418)
Given that was the opposite of what 538 said I'm not sure you are think of the same site?

Here is their final forecast: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/final-election-update-t...

They gave Trump a 28.6% chance and pointed out that the model had an unusual amount of uncertainty.

Given the lead Clinton ended up with in the popular vote and the small margin Trump won by in the critical states the prediction seems pretty reasonable to me.

What do you think his chances should have been?

Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by gfosco on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @05:20PM (#13422005)
Closer to 50/50. It was obvious to me a year ago he was going to win. Go watch some pre-election videos of literally any news channel talking about the "path to 270". There are some incredible delusions at play. They could not separate their own feelings and desires from the work.
Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by Houshalter on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @06:27PM (#13422516)
This is nonsense. They ran a statistical model - their feelings have nothing to do with it. They never tampered with the model to favor a particular candidate. They barely change the model at all, just feed it with polling data.

Good job predicting the outcome of the election. But no way will you be able to do better than 538 in the long run.

Re:The fivethirtyeight R package by nl on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @09:19PM (#13423454)
Go watch some pre-election videos of literally any news channel talking about the "path to 270". There are some incredible delusions at play. They could not separate their own feelings and desires from the work.

I agree with this entirely (assuming you are talking generally, not about 538 specifically). There were people in the GJP Superforecasting project giving Clinton 98% chance of the win 2 months out, which in a 2-person race is just ridiculous (There were people giving Trump that as well, but a lot less of them).

How did you come to this 50/50 prediction though? I can't find the report now, but I believe that Trump data science team gave him a 35% chance of winning, and that was only in the last 10 days of the campaign (they gave him much less prior to that).

To go from the 28%/35% (538/Trump Team) range to 50% seems a pretty big jump.

I haven't done the maths, but to make it a 50/50 doesn't that mean polls in Michigan etc would have had to be around 10% incorrect (to give him sufficient margin to make it that sure)?

That seems a pretty big difference to what the error actually was.