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Re:There is no WhatsApp 'backdoor' by tptacek on Saturday January 14, 2017 @03:39PM (#13400419)
I'm sorry, but once again: this thread began with a different claim. I'm not interested in debating whether it's easier to audit C code or assembly code: I've repeatedly acknowledged that it is.
Re:There is no WhatsApp 'backdoor' by lisper on Saturday January 14, 2017 @04:00PM (#13400530)
Then what exactly are we arguing about? My original claim was:

"You can demonstrate the presence of a vulnerability in closed source software but there's no way to demonstrate (or even provide evidence of) the absence of any vulnerabilities." [Emphasis added] (Also please note that I very deliberately did not use the word "prove".)

Your response was:

"That's identically true of open-source software."

If you acknowledge that it is easier to audit source code then it cannot be the case that anything is "identically true" of open and closed source software (except for uninteresting things like that they are both subject to the halting problem). If it is easier to audit source code (and you just conceded that it is) then it is easier to find vulnerabilities, and so it is more likely that vulnerabilities will be found, and so (for example) the failure of an audit conducted by a competent and honest agent to find vulnerabilities is in fact evidence (not proof) of the absence of vulnerabilities.

But if you have source code written in a language designed to admit formal proofs then it is actually possible to demonstrate the absence of certain classes of vulnerabilities. For example, code written in Rust can be demonstrated (maybe even proven) to not be subject to buffer overflow attacks.

Re:There is no WhatsApp 'backdoor' by tptacek on Saturday January 14, 2017 @04:19PM (#13400613)
Look at the original claim you made. You said it's possible to provide evidence of the existence of vulnerabilities in closed source software, but not of their absence. To the extent that's true, it's true of open source software as well. The dichotomy you presented, about absence of evidence vs. evidence of absence, is not about open source software but about all software built without formal methods --- which, regardless of the language used, is almost all software.

The point you made is orthogonal to the question of whether we can understand and evaluate ("verify") closed-source software.

Re:There is no WhatsApp 'backdoor' by lisper on Saturday January 14, 2017 @05:40PM (#13401006)
OK, I concede the point.

Let me try to advance a different thesis then: it is possible to write software in such a manner that the source code is amenable to methods of analysis that the object code is not. Accordingly, for software written in such manners, it is possible to provide certain guarantees if the source code is available for analysis, and those guarantees cannot be provided if the source code is not available. Would you agree with that?

Re:There is no WhatsApp 'backdoor' by tptacek on Saturday January 14, 2017 @05:54PM (#13401089)
I think it's possible that that's true, but am uncertain: the claim depends on formal methods for software construction that defy decompilation. But the higher-level the tools used for building software, the more effective decompilation tends to be. I also don't think we're even close to the apex of what decompilation (even of the clumsy, lossy compiled languages we have today) will be able to do.

So, it's an interesting question, and one I have much less of a strong opinion on.

If you can't tell, my real issue here is the idea that closed-source software is somehow unknowable. I know you're not claiming that it is. But I think if you look over these threads, you'll see that they tend to begin with people who do believe that, or claim to.