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Re:20 years as a Debian maintainer by grhmc on Monday January 09, 2017 @09:05AM (#13356338)
Packaging is a complicated task and isn't as automatable as you'd think, It is important to consider how changes impact other tools. AppImage depends on maintainers too. Consider for example how appimage recipes depend on wget and bash and thusly openssl and libidn and glibc and libdl and git too, which brings with it libz and, and, and ...

PS: Thank you, Riku. I never understood the sheer amount of effort involved in being a packager / maintainer until I started doing the same task for NixOS. I regularly depend on Debian's excellent patches and CVE details to do my work. May you not be bogged down by nirvana fallacies :)

Re:20 years as a Debian maintainer by xorfish on Monday January 09, 2017 @09:58AM (#13356722)
> Packaging is a complicated task and isn't as automatable as you'd think

I think the Solus guys would have a word with you. Even with no packaging experience it is pretty simple to create a package for Solus Project.

Here a short intro:

https://wiki.solus-project.com/Packaging

Re:20 years as a Debian maintainer by infinity0 on Monday January 09, 2017 @10:06AM (#13356791)
Come back when they have done this for 24000 third-party packages.
Re:20 years as a Debian maintainer by xorfish on Monday January 09, 2017 @04:44PM (#13360088)
I don't see the connection. I didn't say that they have more packages, just that they have very good packaging tooling that makes it simple to make consistent packages.
Re:20 years as a Debian maintainer by BuuQu9hu on Monday January 09, 2017 @07:42PM (#13361483)
When you package 24000 things, you find significant diversity in build systems, languages, source code, testing etc. It isn't easy to package all of that in simple ways.
Re:20 years as a Debian maintainer by xorfish on Tuesday January 10, 2017 @03:47AM (#13363553)
I don't know exactly to what the 24000 number refers to. Solus Project does already have 5000 packages in the repos. I think that is quite an accomplishment for a pretty small team of 3-4 people with some help from the community.
Re:20 years as a Debian maintainer by radarsat1 on Monday January 09, 2017 @01:17PM (#13358387)
What I find complicated about Debian packaging is not how to use the tools and how to arrange the package, although that is certainly complicated, but not intractable. What I don't understand is once you have a package, why it is such a long and complicated process to get it into Debian.

You can't just upload it and forget, you have to sign up and become associated with that work, you have distribute your keys and get other people to trust you, you have to make a bug and file the package against that bug, etc. There is this whole social dynamic within Debian that I just don't understand at all.

If it was more like software development; make the package, git commit, push, post it to software like reddit and have people approve (upvote) it, then I'd be a maintainer already. Instead there's this whole process behind becoming a maintainer, finding a "mentor" etc, that for years I've just found to be a complete roadblock.

Re:20 years as a Debian maintainer by brennen on Monday January 09, 2017 @02:34PM (#13359079)
> You can't just upload it and forget

Leaving aside the specifics of Debian's tooling and social process (undeniably, these are arcane and complex), I suspect this has a lot to do with why Debian is such a reliable environment over time in a way that few software collections manage.

It would almost certainly be better if it were easier than it is to participate in Debian. I've thought about contributing for years, but I certainly haven't had the energy to clear those hurdles. On the other hand, there's something really important in the distance between typical modern software publication and packaging for an ecosystem like Debian.

I think we'd be a lot better off if more people were committed to the hard, tedious process stuff that renders software accessible to users, a good neighbor to other projects, and maintainable over the long term.

Re:20 years as a Debian maintainer by rleigh on Monday January 09, 2017 @04:53PM (#13360168)
"Upload and forget" leads to packages which are uploaded once and then abandoned. This then becomes a burden. While the Debian process is time consuming and arcane it does select for people who are prepared to commit to maintaining packages for the longer term.

That said, the Debian processes are over 20 years old. I find contributing to the FreeBSD ports and MacOS X homebrew package collections simpler, and without the same level of jumping through hoops. Homebrew's git-based submission, review and CI testing is simple to use. Likewise submitting a patch for the FreeBSD ports. Debian could do something similar, but its workflows predate this significantly. Were Debian to adopt a similar process, I think it would make the process significantly more transparent. The existing practice is still oriented around single individuals maintaining and uploading single packages (though it can also be done by groups with their own private version control for the package/group). The newer methods are significantly more open with much lower barrier to entry.

Re:20 years as a Debian maintainer by BuuQu9hu on Monday January 09, 2017 @07:40PM (#13361471)
These days there are several very active sponsors so it should not be a problem to get new packages in.

Upload and forget leads to dead packages that get removed next time there is a library transition. Debian is about long-term maintenance.

The social stuff (as well as the social contract and DFSG) is also what creates trust within and towards the Debian community and holds it together, which is the main reason it has lasted so long.