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Re:Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players by zeven7 on Thursday January 05, 2017 @01:42AM (#13325234)
> had its policy network trained from scratch rather than being bootstrapped by being given the goal of imitating the moves of strong humans

I just watched a couple of games, and I can't agree. Master's fuseki looks a lot like human fuseki. It plays some original, unusual, confusing, non-human looking moves, yes. It also plays some moves at what would normally be considered the "wrong time" conventionally. But the fuseki still looks highly derived from human games to me -- human with some (sometimes major) tweaks.

When AlphaGo is trained fully from first principles alone, I expect another Shin Fuseki -- a revolution in opening strategy. I would be surprised if Go Seigen, Kitani Minoru, et al had finally discovered optimal opening strategy at the beginning of the 20th century (developments since then have mostly been small refinings of what was started in the Shin Fuseki era, not revolutionary).

Re:Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players by thomasahle on Thursday January 05, 2017 @03:53AM (#13325748)
Some people were discussion that it seemed like Master just didn't care that much about the opening, since "it knows it'll win anyway".

On chess computers certainly seems to have supported that basically any opening move is playable with tight enough play.

Re:Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players by ogrisel on Thursday January 05, 2017 @03:08AM (#13325568)
Maybe it does not use the same opening style when it plays against a version of itself.

It would be very interesting to have pro-players comment on published records of alphago self-play.

Maybe alphago has discovered a new balance between black and white (that is a new optimal value of the komi) but when playing with the human defined of the value of the komi its optimal style is also different than what it would be otherwise.

Re:Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players by Radim on Thursday January 05, 2017 @03:54AM (#13325755)
You mean, like these three AlphaGo self-play games from September? ;)

https://deepmind.com/research/alphago/alphago-games-english/

(analysis by Gu Li and Zhou Ruiyang, two top pros; standard komi)

Re:Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players by hyperpape on Thursday January 05, 2017 @12:37PM (#13329290)
Note that these games look much more human than the ones dfan was describing. There are surprising ideas, but they are still much more normal.
Re:Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players by Radim on Saturday January 07, 2017 @01:27AM (#13342674)
I don't know about that.

I'm a mere 1 dan, but I fail to see this marked "difference in normality".

What specifically looks "much less human" to you in these newer games?

Re:Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players by hyperpape on Saturday January 07, 2017 @04:08PM (#13346641)
It's certainly a point of contention, but I think it's the general tenor of comments by other players. Though in hindsight, I wouldn't call it inhuman per se. Humans do play strange moves. It's just a big deviation from pro orthodoxy.

In this games described here, the floating reduction of the wall looks very odd to me: http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=13929&p=21.... I also thought the first game against kiss88 featured a lot of very unorthodox moves: the double tenuki in the top right and the shoulder hit against the 44 + knight's move in the lower left especially seemed novel to me. The two space extension from the 34 point is also uncommon, but less surprising.

Another move that didn't seem familiar to me was the shoulder hit and large knight's reduction in the lower right, but that may just be a tactical variation that's unfamiliar.

P.S. I'm only 3k AGA, 4k OGS, so take my personal opinion with a grain of salt! I do think I have a decent feeling for what other people are thinking. Ke Jie made a comment about no human having scratched the surface of go.

Re:Google reveals secret test of AI bot to beat top Go players by Radim on Sunday January 08, 2017 @03:25AM (#13348881)
Agreed, AlphaGo's moves are definitely unorthodox. And yes, humans with their "narrative" style of playing and "intuition" can barely scratch the surface of reading-heavy perfect-information zero-sum games like Go. No contention there.

But the question was whether these Master games look less human than the previously published self-play games by AlphaGo. And I just don't see it.

The first and third self-play games in particular look crazier (to me) than anything I've seen in this Master collection.

But again, just a measly 1d amateur commenting on unworldly 9p vs ?11?p battles :) People at my level can barely glimpse the tip of the iceberg.