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Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by diggan on Sunday January 01, 2017 @08:14AM (#13295628)
Hm, feels a bit weird. If they already got served with an order to share the data and they refused to comply, closing down the service instead, what can have changed today? Wouldn't this mean that someone else took up the service, agreed to the order and now this will become some sort of honeypot?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but I don't understand how anyone could trust Lavabit to either stick around or actually be private and/or secure.

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by raptaml on Sunday January 01, 2017 @10:03AM (#13295928)
Maybe they relaunched the service in a country where no one cares about US mass-surveillance law and it's enforcing entities...
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by koheripbal on Sunday January 01, 2017 @11:37AM (#13296207)
Doesn't using a .com TLD mean they are subject to DNS seizure in the US? ...although maybe it'll redirect once they launch.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by tombrossman on Sunday January 01, 2017 @11:44AM (#13296236)
host lavabit.com && whois 72.249.41.52

Lavabit LLC - Dallas TX and Colo4, LLC - St Louis MO.

(Insert your own joke here about Americans not caring about mass surveillance...)

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by GTP on Sunday January 01, 2017 @11:37AM (#13296212)
This could be a solution. I'm courious to know, maybe they will give more information when the service will be back online.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by chias on Sunday January 01, 2017 @11:57AM (#13296268)
Feels very weird, especially after checking the page source:

  /*
  Count down until any date script-
  By JavaScript Kit (www.javascriptkit.com)
  Over 200+ free scripts here!
  Modified by Robert M. Kuhnhenn, D.O.
  on 5/30/2006 to count down to a specific date AND time,
  and on 1/10/2010 to include time zone offset.
  */
I mean, I get not reinventing the wheel, but given who they are, the fact that they're sourcing scripts from JavaScriptKit.com for something as simple as a countdown timer is odd. It's not even a good countdown script... like, it even has a y2k bug:

  var today=new Date();
  var todayy=today.getYear();
  if (todayy < 1000) {
  todayy+=1900; }
Kudos for not just stripping the attribution I guess, but I wouldn't trust whoever put up that website with my email, encryption or no.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by insertnickname on Sunday January 01, 2017 @12:52PM (#13296512)
Maybe it's just because he never bothered to learn JavaScript. The old website was pretty simple.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by chias on Sunday January 01, 2017 @02:06PM (#13296791)
Perhaps. But if you're copy-pasting scripts from other sources into your platform without [being capable of] vetting them, then it fundamentally undermines the security of the platform.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by jimnotgym on Sunday January 01, 2017 @09:03AM (#13295743)
I wonder if they will attempt to use a 'canary' system, where each day they post a message to say they have not had to hand over any data to law enforcement. Then if they do get an order that says they cannot discuss, they just don't post the canary.You can't force someone to say something in the US can you?
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by geocar on Sunday January 01, 2017 @09:09AM (#13295762)
> Then if they do get an order that says they cannot discuss, they just don't post the canary.

There's no need for this (anymore). You're already allowed to disclose (coarsely) the number of NSL you've received[1].

[1]: https://www.justice.gov/iso/opa/resources/366201412716018407...

> You can't force someone to say something in the US can you?

Unclear. The EFF believes you can't be compelled to lie, however you should consult an attorney with details of the specifics.

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by danarmak on Sunday January 01, 2017 @09:51AM (#13295892)
> The EFF believes you can't be compelled to lie

This always sounded fishy to me. When a NSL is served, they order you to keep silent about it, so you can't tell e.g. your own CISO. But if the CISO comes and asks, you're not ordered to lie and say you haven't received one? So if the CISO just asks you every morning, the NSL's order of keeping silent is defeated? I can't believe the courts and the executive that support NSLs in the first place would allow such a loophole.

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by geocar on Sunday January 01, 2017 @10:02AM (#13295926)
If you find yourself in such a situation, you should consult with an attorney: Telling your CISO may put you and them at risk that you cannot understand.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by danarmak on Sunday January 01, 2017 @10:21AM (#13295996)
Firstly, if it is illegal to tell the CISO about the NSL, it may also be illegal to tell some details to an attorney. At least, by going to an attorney, you're already taking some legal risk, in addition to incurring the extralegal wrath of the FBI.

Secondly, the FBI can serve an NSL to the CEO, a separate one to the CISO, and so on down the chain to the tech people whose job would be to fulfill the order. They can choose to serve one or some or all of these orders, and they can order some served people to cooperate and others to keep silent or lie to one another. It's not feasible to expect all of these people, some of whom are not officers of the company, to consult lawyers.

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by geocar on Sunday January 01, 2017 @10:37AM (#13296050)
The FBI has some good material on this subject[1] and specifically permits you to disclose the NSL to your attorney so that you can comply with it.

Something important to understand is that non-disclosure is not an automatic feature of the NSL, but that disclosure binds the parties to the terms in the NSL.

[1]: https://vault.fbi.gov/National%20Security%20Letters%20%28NSL...

> Secondly, the FBI can serve an NSL to the CEO, a separate one to the CISO, and so on down the chain to the tech people whose job would be to fulfill the order

Yes, they can, however that's not what happens. The general council may advise the CEO to disclose certain requirements or aspects of the NSL to the CISO or to other parties for the purposes of complying with the NSL. They will almost certainly not recommend disclosing or distributing the NSL "down the chain to the tech people".

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by danarmak on Sunday January 01, 2017 @11:34AM (#13296203)
> They will almost certainly not recommend disclosing or distributing the NSL "down the chain to the tech people".

I meant they might target the tech people directly from the start - or someone who isn't a C-level executive, anyway - if they think the CxOs would go to a lawyer and the lower level people would just comply.

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by geocar on Sunday January 01, 2017 @12:14PM (#13296324)
No. They will deliver the letter to the secretary, general council or a named director. They will not send it to "the tech people" directly.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by SpaceManiac on Sunday January 01, 2017 @10:19AM (#13295989)
While maybe literally true, "risk that you cannot understand" is a little overthreatening. Are you implying extrajudicial financial ruin, torture, murder? I doubt it, so what?
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by geocar on Sunday January 01, 2017 @10:47AM (#13296077)
I'm trying not to imply anything, because every situation is different. Nevertheless, violating a federal order could have serious consequences, and if you need advice on this subject, you should talk to an attorney about it.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by dingaling on Sunday January 01, 2017 @11:17AM (#13296154)
Do you think the average retained attorney will be well-versed in the subtleties of NSL disclosure?

The point being made upthread is that there is no black and white guidance, there is no secret NSL Guide Book for attornies.

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by geocar on Sunday January 01, 2017 @12:13PM (#13296316)
Yes, actually I do. Gag orders aren't unique to the NSL and if your attorney believes the case is too complicated they will be able to help you find a specialist.

The FBI does in fact has some guidance that your attorney will be able to locate[1]

[1]: https://vault.fbi.gov/National%20Security%20Letters%20%28NSL...

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by mcherm on Sunday January 01, 2017 @09:14AM (#13295774)
Being allowed to say "I received between 0 and 999 NSLs affecting 0 to 999 customers" doesn't really convey the same information as a canary.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by shshhdhs on Sunday January 01, 2017 @09:29AM (#13295823)
How so? Enabling the canary only tells you that one or more was served/obeyed, and can't be used again. To me, 0-999 also tells me that one or more was served/obeyed.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by jasonkostempski on Sunday January 01, 2017 @09:41AM (#13295858)
Is the rule actually 0-999? Because they'd have to get 1000 or more before you knew there was 1 or more.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by geocar on Sunday January 01, 2017 @09:54AM (#13295906)
It is four pages, the first page is mostly dedications and the last page is mostly blank. It will not take you much time to read the remaining two pages and develop your own understanding.

Here is how I am parsing it:

The Office of the Attorney General proposes two options:

1. Separate category reports for NSL, FISA content, and FISA non-content requests and customers affected.

2. A single report for all NSL and FISA requests, and a report for customers affected.

If you want to distinguish between the different kind of request (category 1) then you can report in blocks of 1,000, while if you don't, you can report in blocks of 250.

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by MereInterest on Sunday January 01, 2017 @10:55AM (#13296093)
With how untested warrant canaries are in the courts, I wonder how a more detailed scheme would work. Every day making 1000 public statements, each of the form "We have received no more than N NSLs."
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by geocar on Sunday January 01, 2017 @02:43PM (#13296946)
I don't think a court will be impressed with that.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by Mayzie on Sunday January 01, 2017 @09:49AM (#13295879)
Out of curiosity, how granular can the canary system be? Can say, for a Lavabit-like service, each e-mail address have a separate canary associated with it?
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by maaaats on Sunday January 01, 2017 @08:18AM (#13295641)
One could hope they now have solved it technically in a way that would make it impossible for them to deliver that kind of data.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by ryanlol on Sunday January 01, 2017 @08:20AM (#13295647)
That's not exactly possible for an email service provided by a third party.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by imaginenore on Sunday January 01, 2017 @08:36AM (#13295684)
End-to-end encryption. Only the users have the keys.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by nailer on Sunday January 01, 2017 @08:40AM (#13295692)
And SMTP 571: 'Delivery not authorized' for anyone that sends a plain text message.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by Fnoord on Sunday January 01, 2017 @09:55AM (#13295907)
Interesting but isn't the data already received in plaintext at that point?
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by cryptarch on Sunday January 01, 2017 @10:49AM (#13296082)
You could have a hardened gateway server with read-only storage and that only temporarily stores messages in memory.

Maybe a heterogenous bunch if them so you'd have to crack all of them to get all messages.

You could periodically reset them in case they still get infected.

You could add a transparant proxy that specifically looks for odd, repeated requests, to detect re-infectations.

You'd set up alerts for attempts at communication/scanning from those servers, to detect virusses trying to move laterally between the different instances, and/or isolate them from eachother on the network layer.

You could have a separare hardware device that scans the memory of these servers to detect tampering.

It could also try to detect "plaintextness" and abort as soon as it detects that, so you only have the beginning of the message in memory.

This doesn't help when the ISP is recording (and it probably is), but it makes it very hard to retrieve the data from inside the email datacenter.

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by Fnoord on Monday January 02, 2017 @09:53AM (#13301402)
> You could have a hardened gateway server with read-only storage and that only temporarily stores messages in memory.

Yeah, well, who is your adversary?

I assume NSA and GCHQ by default just log all SMTP traffic. Especially the ones to services like these.

If your adversary is someone sniffing your unencrypted WiFi connection, they'll have your unencrypted e-mail like this one as well.

If your adversary is network and sysadmins who run your SMTP server then all bets are off. I think the danger lies, just like within Tor, that there's a mole in such a team who does harm while being undetected.

If you're protecting against the local authorities ensuring to get a remote, secure connection with a country who isn't playing along with your local authorities is key. Which is why Putin wants Russians to use local services.

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by dom0 on Sunday January 01, 2017 @11:17AM (#13296153)
> You could periodically reset them in case they still get infected.

Just have them rebuild themselves from ROM after each processed mail :)

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by ryanlol on Sunday January 01, 2017 @12:59PM (#13296544)
This is retarded. If you try something this you will end up just like lavabit did. You can't rely on solutions that require the operator to remain honest.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by cryptarch on Sunday January 01, 2017 @07:42PM (#13298302)
I don't think it is? Fact is, if you use SMTP, you can only see if the content is encrypted or not once you receive part of it. The techniques I mentioned are to reduce the risk of these (partial) plaintexts being captured, but should be paired with a refusal to deliver.

There's no way to stop a user's contacts sending plaintext emails for all the ISP's/intelligence agencies to see, but you can make sure you touch them as little as possible when they do arrive (see GP) and discourage those contacts from doing it again by not delivering/returning error codes.

Unless you drop SMTP altogether. I think Riot with E2E is looking pretty good, but it's not been hardened at all.

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by ryanlol on Monday January 02, 2017 @04:22PM (#13304660)
>Fact is, if you use SMTP, you can only see if the content is encrypted or not once you receive part of it.

Then don't put your users at risk by using SMTP.

>The techniques I mentioned are to reduce the risk of these (partial) plaintexts being captured, but should be paired with a refusal to deliver.

Techniques you mentioned are nothing more than pointless showmanship, which you'll cease as soon as the government asks you to.

>There's no way to stop a user's contacts sending plaintext emails for all the ISP's/intelligence agencies to see

Which is why you shouldn't put them in a situation where they will inevitably do so.

>Unless you drop SMTP altogether.

If you're going to launch a service that advertises secure communications, you have to. Otherwise you're just endangering your users, just like lavabit did.

We're not talking hypotheticals here. Lavabit already fucked over their users trying to pull silliness like this.

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by ryanlol on Sunday January 01, 2017 @01:00PM (#13296546)
Since you cannot realistically prevent unencrypted emails from being sent to your email service, that's not any kind of a solution.

You can't rely on your ability to block them either, or you'll end up just like lavabit did.

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by ycmbntrthrwaway on Sunday January 01, 2017 @09:25AM (#13295804)
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by simooooo on Sunday January 01, 2017 @09:25AM (#13295803)
I had just this thought. I think your are correct. They'd have to be willing to hand over your data, or get served and taken down again.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by gravypod on Sunday January 01, 2017 @08:18AM (#13295642)
Force end to end PGP encryption for all users? If they do that then I'd assume they could hand over data and say "good luck".

They could also setup a P2P delivery & backup system so that it's not guaranteed they have the data. If all the data is encrypted, it's not really an issue to distribute everything (but then again we'd be talking AES512 or better for something crazy like that).

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by kevinbowman on Sunday January 01, 2017 @08:52AM (#13295719)
From StackOverflow [0]:

"We can't implement "AES 512 key size" because AES is defined for key sizes k∈{128,192,256} bits only; much like we can't make a bicycle with 3 wheels."

[0] http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/20253/why-we-cant-...

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by shshhdhs on Sunday January 01, 2017 @09:31AM (#13295828)
I was about to disagree with the bicycle analogy, and realized that a tricycle is indeed different than a bicycle, at least by name & definition. Clever analogy.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by chrismorgan on Sunday January 01, 2017 @09:34AM (#13295832)
I love my recumbent tricycle. Legally it’s a bicycle; the fact that it happens to have three wheels is irrelevant.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by gruez on Sunday January 01, 2017 @11:06AM (#13296119)
Not to mention that 128bits is secure enough for the foreseeable future
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by mikepurvis on Sunday January 01, 2017 @09:23AM (#13295799)
There's no such thing as "end to end" encryption for webmail, unless you have a browser extension that can validate the JavaScript you were served from the host (which is capable of performing the decryption and obviously has access to your private key).

Otherwise you're just trusting that you've not been served backdoored JS by order of an NSL.

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by homakov on Sunday January 01, 2017 @09:51AM (#13295885)
Browser extension would be useful either because it's usually autoupdated and unsigned.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by Piskvorrr on Sunday January 01, 2017 @10:14AM (#13295976)
Plus trusting the extension, the browser, the OS and the HW.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by JshWright on Sunday January 01, 2017 @08:38AM (#13295687)
You lost me at AES512...
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by gravypod on Sunday January 01, 2017 @08:44AM (#13295699)
If you think AES512 isn't secure enough for your data you should not be hosting your mail server out of your network.....

Also, if you have a way to break AES512 I know some people who'd pay a killing to get that information. No litterally there's people who'd kill for that.

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by pfg on Sunday January 01, 2017 @08:50AM (#13295714)
AES512 isn't a thing. AES uses 128, 192 or 256-bit keys.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by JshWright on Sunday January 01, 2017 @08:55AM (#13295724)
Since there is no such thing as AES512, 'breaking' it isn't that hard...
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by StavrosK on Sunday January 01, 2017 @09:03AM (#13295744)
Fine, AES1024 then! Pedants.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by milansuk on Sunday January 01, 2017 @08:42AM (#13295697)
AES512? Is there some 512-bit symmetric key cipher?

They could encrypt with two(or more) 256bits keys, but I think just 256bits key is enough for at least next 5years.

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by dom0 on Sunday January 01, 2017 @11:18AM (#13296158)
RC4 accepted up to 2048 key bits. (It is symmetric, it's just not a block cipher).
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by gravypod on Sunday January 01, 2017 @08:45AM (#13295705)
I think ideally you don't what a set reveal date for all of your personal emails. 5 years is very short term to wait for some good email data.
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by matt4077 on Sunday January 01, 2017 @09:43AM (#13295866)
A brute-force attack on AES256 would currently take (10 * 2^256) / (4 * 10^9) seconds, assuming a 4Ghz CPU with 10 clock cycles per try. As long as my calculator tells me it takes "NAN" years to crack my encryption I'm not getting nervous. Quantum computing may change that, but it's currently in the weird space between ("all bets are off, anyway" and "it's not magic").
Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by czinck on Sunday January 01, 2017 @11:32AM (#13296197)
On top of that, I don't remember the specific assumptions but my Crypto professor proved that just to increment a counter to 2^256 would take more energy than exists in the observable universe.

I think also everyone is pretty sure quantum computing won't break AES, but maybe there's some weakness in the S/P boxes that quantum computers can exploit, who knows. That's the fun in crypto, you can't prove that anything other than OTP is unbreakable.

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by dom0 on Sunday January 01, 2017 @12:22PM (#13296355)
> On top of that, I don't remember the specific assumptions but my Crypto professor proved that just to increment a counter to 2^256 would take more energy than exists in the observable universe.

Well, depending on the theory the universe isn't even supposed to have any net sum, but regardless: even at the Landauer limit (at room temperature; it scales linearly to absolute temp) it would take an awful lot of energy to do the computation non-reversibly, about:

    2**256 * 256 * 2.5 zJ
    ~ 8e+58 J
Which is about 38 orders of magnitude greater than the total energy use of the world (~3.75e+11 GWs).

And any computer built so far is still far, far away from the Landauer limit.

There is also Bremermann's limit which is an intrinsic limit on the processing speed per mass. Eg. a machine that traverses a 256 bit key space in 15 years with one one bit operation per traversed key must weight at least ~1.8e+21 grams, which would be quite a chunk of machinery.

This just goes to show that brute-forcing 256 bits is simply not going to happen with any civilization that isn't able to harness the power of at least one star.

That doesn't say anything about cryptanalysis, though. I think with an algorithm like AES, which has been analysed a great many times, that it's becoming less likely that there is a cryptanalytic breakthrough. It might be the case that AES will remain secure throughout the information age.

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by ycmbntrthrwaway on Sunday January 01, 2017 @12:18PM (#13296340)
> On top of that, I don't remember the specific assumptions but my Crypto professor proved that just to increment a counter to 2^256 would take more energy than exists in the observable universe.

This proof is present in Schneier's "Applied Cryptography" if someone wants source.

Re:Lavabit returning in 19 days by ycmbntrthrwaway on Sunday January 01, 2017 @10:01AM (#13295922)
Quantum computing is not going to change that, but it can break key exchange.