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Re:The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion by eric_b on Thursday December 29, 2016 @06:30PM (#13281165)
I'm not sure if you realize it - but your comment is the problem, not the original poster. Sometimes facts don't fit a political narrative. Comments like yours are what have polarized the nation. Your knee-jerk reaction to anything that disagrees with your position is to name-call and shame. Not very good form.
Re:The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion by jhedwards on Thursday December 29, 2016 @06:45PM (#13281258)
I kind of disagree in this case. As a general rule I think ideas should be debated objectively and with facts, but when someone so clearly promotes the idea that there are human races that are genetically distinct and map onto traits like intelligence and success I just think of the legacy that this line of thinking has given us: death, torture, and poverty throughout human history on a scale that's impossible to comprehend. Slavery and the holocaust were both predicated on the simple idea that one kind of human was superior so I don't feel comfortable sitting around sipping tea and debating that.
Re:The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion by alpsgolden on Thursday December 29, 2016 @07:30PM (#13281521)
Slavery and the holocaust were both predicated on the simple idea that one kind of human was superior so I don't feel comfortable sitting around sipping tea and debating that.

On the Holocaust I'd argue the opposite point -- it was the denial of Jews genetically having a higher IQ that helped lead to the Holocaust. Jews had a level of wealth and achievement disproportionate to their population. So if you don't believe they are smarter and don't believe they have earned it, then the explanation you are left with is that they are tricky and their gains were ill-begotten. And if you read Amy Chua's book World on Fire you'll see this pattern over and over again. A certain ethnic group (Jews, Chinese, etc) does better everywhere they go. But then get demonized by the local population for their overachievement, and pogroms result.

Slavery and genocide have been around forever, since we were chimpanzees really. The Romans were enslaving Greeks and everyone else (who they respected for their intelligence). Slavery was not invented because of belief in racial differences. Slavery was invented because people like taking the sh*t of other people.

The NY Times publishes hundreds of articles a year on racial disparities. If you're going to make it a big issue, then you need to fully explore the reasons for the disparities based on the facts. Otherwise you will get the wrong answers, and the wrong solutions.

Re:The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion by ajamesm on Thursday December 29, 2016 @08:28PM (#13281813)
> A certain ethnic group (Jews, Chinese, etc) does better everywhere they go.

How many Jewish populations have been dispersed or annihilated throughout history, and their story lost?

Instead of arguing for scientific racism, would you consider the selection bias inherent in your assumptions.

Re:The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion by alpsgolden on Friday December 30, 2016 @12:11AM (#13282669)
I believe that Chua was talking about the Ashkenazi Jews. I was convinced of the "scientific racism" explanation for their achievement based on the evidence presented in the book the 10,000 The 10,000 Year Explosion: How Civilization Accelerated Human Evolution Paperback by Gregory Cochran and Henry Harpending. Nicholas Wade, a long time writer for the New York Times also made the same arguments in his book A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History although I haven't read it.
Re:The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion by ajamesm on Thursday December 29, 2016 @06:57PM (#13281335)
And you can find any number of analyses that all conclude, "yup, the link is completely spurious".

The subject isn't debatable in polite company because it has been refuted so comprehensively that the only reason to still stick to it is an unwavering dedication to white nationalist ideology.

On this topic, there is no good faith.

Re:The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion by smhost on Thursday December 29, 2016 @07:53PM (#13281646)
The fallacy propagated by racists is: genetics = race, therefore "genetic differences account for intelligence" implies "racial differences account for intelligence."

Which is obviously not true, but you shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater. It's actually an open secret among psychologists that genetics is moderately linked to intelligence and other things like workplace success, though no one that I know will admit even to entertaining the idea, because that would mean career suicide and death threats. But it's not a white supremacist thing. In fact, it can even be seen as the opposite. Race doesn't matter at all as long as you possess those genes for intelligence.

Re:The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion by garandus on Thursday December 29, 2016 @07:41PM (#13281583)
Please stop saying this in various comments here. It isn't true. Someone linked you to the relevant Wikipedia article, which references a lot of good sources you should become familiar with.
Re:The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion by ajamesm on Thursday December 29, 2016 @06:38PM (#13281200)
The problem is so-called "race realists" boiling complex sociological issues down by way of lazy and fallacious thinking, and then not-so-subtly implying that there is a racial basis for intelligence and human worth.

The snarky "checkmated by FACTS, you emotional liberal!" narrative doesn't work when STUDY after STUDY fails to find any meaningful correlation.

Re:The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion by eric_b on Thursday December 29, 2016 @06:44PM (#13281252)
On the basis of race and IQ I admit I am mostly ignorant of the arguments. A quick Wiki search reveals there are plenty of studies that have shown a correlation (whether the methodology was sound is under attack it seems). So while there may or may not be a correlation, it's certainly being debated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

That said, I don't think anyone is arguing we should resort to genocide, segregation, eugenics or any of those previous "solutions". I believe people are arguing that unless we can talk candidly about factors for the growing divide, we will never fix anything.

Re:The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion by gertef on Thursday December 29, 2016 @07:31PM (#13281523)
The Black community has been waiting to talk candidly about slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, unfair incarceration, and more, for 200 years. When will you be ready to talk about something beyond "let's keep looking for reasons to blame Black people for their suffering"?
Re:The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion by jonathankoren on Thursday December 29, 2016 @08:38PM (#13281861)
It's "debated" by white supremacists and everyone else. It's a completely bankrupt both scientifically and morally, had has been repeatedly discredited. You might as well be talking about the debate about the shape of the earth. The whole house of cards falls down with when you realize that race is a social construct, when no unifying scientific base at all.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_of_White_People where "white" has been expanded and contracted to mean whatever was politically convenient at the time. This is obvious to anyone with even a cursory observation of contemporary American culture. Barack Obama is "black" even though he's equally "white." Keanu Reeves is "white" even though he has an "asian" parent. Argentinians are "hispanic" despite being light skinned and descendent from Italians and Germans, why? Well they speak Spanish. Even the fragility of whiteness illustrate this fact.

This whole "race realism" is the same discredited scientific racism that has persisted for hundreds of years, and is this is the second (and far more virulent) time this has come up in my adult life. The only twist on this very old idea is that now the "smart asian kid" stereotype throws a wrench in the works, when before you you dismiss asians as a bunch of treacherous lazy opium addicts. Now you have to put them in on a near peer to whites, but but discount them as "smart, but not imaginative. Good followers, not leaders." The whole thing obviously is there to simply reinforce existing stereotypes, and reduce humanity to entries in the D&D Monster Manual.

Even in this forum, and this very thread we've got a guy pointing out this out completely with citations, and he's modded down to oblivion because of the actual racists in this forum (themgt, JPKab, wutbrodo, wallace_f, and no doubt others, including those hiding behind throwaway accounts) find it uncomfortable.

So in conclusion, fuck the fascists.

[dead]
Re:The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion by ajamesm on Thursday December 29, 2016 @09:25PM (#13282054)
I don't think anyone has an objection to honestly studying heritable traits, including those for intelligence, but rather we object to how quickly people cherry-pick individual studies to support ideologies, without paying any heed to the general scientific consensus or other studies.

"This one study from 1976..." isn't a convincing case for establishing that link.

If there were a good meta-analysis that tied together several studies and made a reasonable, statistically-grounded case that race is tied to IQ, while simultaneously explaining the contradicting studies, the anime-avatar Race Realist crowd would be absolutely tripping over themselves to post it.

Where is it?

Re:The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion by wutbrodo on Thursday December 29, 2016 @06:42PM (#13281233)
> when STUDY after STUDY fails to find any meaningful correlation.

This seems like a far more productive avenue of criticism than "you're a nazi CHECKMATE". This is barely one degree of separation from political conversations like: "Government action? Nice try, STALIN"

Re:The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion by garandus on Thursday December 29, 2016 @07:40PM (#13281571)
No, many studies have worked hard to control for sociological effects and concluded that there are likely still correlations between race and IQ.
Re:The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion by checkmatelib on Thursday December 29, 2016 @08:05PM (#13281702)
> The snarky "checkmated by FACTS, you emotional liberal!" narrative doesn't work when STUDY after STUDY fails to find any meaningful correlation

I think you're the one constructing a narrative. From what I'm aware of, there IS a correlation between race and IQ, and it is strong. And it is borne out by study after study. Stronger than the effects of environment and education. Even in the famous Minnesota transracial twin study where adopted black children are raised by wealthy white parents, " the IQs of adopted black children reared by white families did not differ significantly from that of black children raised by their biological parents."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption...

Re:The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion by jonathankoren on Thursday December 29, 2016 @08:33PM (#13281834)
Says the guy with the trolltastic throwaway account.
Re:The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion by checkmatelib on Thursday December 29, 2016 @08:49PM (#13281908)
That's a great argument you have.
Re:The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion by jonathankoren on Friday December 30, 2016 @04:42AM (#13283530)
I don't debate fascists, because they are good faith actors. If you were, you wouldn't be hiding coward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tlwf9A1ivc

Re:The Asian American ‘advantage’ that is actually an illusion by kmicklas on Thursday December 29, 2016 @06:46PM (#13281272)
Sadly these Nazis are the majority of readers here.