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Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by tylercubell on Tuesday December 06, 2016 @01:07PM (#13116798)
> “In my mind it’s a P.R. gimmick,” said Chris Warren, vice president of communications at the Institute for Energy Research, a think tank in Washington supported largely by donations from individuals and companies in the fossil fuel industry. “If they think they can actually support themselves with wind and solar panels, they should connect them directly to their data centers.”

I love how the author throws in a disclaimed quotation from a big oil Luddite to help reinforce the message of the article. It's a two-fold sales tactic.

1. Discredit the opposition.

2. Tell the buyer what the opposition will say, after already convincing them of the benefits, so they're prepared to defend what they're buying thereby reinforcing their beliefs.

I'm not implying that the article is wrong, but it's something we should be aware of.

Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by rocketraman on Tuesday December 06, 2016 @03:33PM (#13118055)
Unfortunately, there is indeed a lot of truth to the statement that it is a PR gimmick.

The problem with wind and solar is that they are intermittent. Therefore, Google's consumption at any particular moment in time cannot be supplied solely by these intermittent sources because their energy output never matches current demand (at least until some big honking batteries are built to level this out, for which the tech currently does not exist AFAIK -- no, Tesla's battery tech isn't even close to operating at this scale, though its a small step in that direction).

Therefore, Google must take power from the grid from non-intermittent sources that can ramp up and down based on demand, such as coal, gas, and nuclear. And this fact will remain true, even if Google had purchased wind and solar contracts for total energy many times greater than their total energy use.

So even though they may be purchasing contracts for wind/solar energy that exceed their own total energy use, they still cannot even approach viable operation without access to non-wind and solar sources, so its definitely misleading by Google to suggest they are running entirely on wind/solar.

Furthermore, the excess energy produced that Google purchased, but did not use because of the intermittency issue, actually reduces the efficiency of fossil and nuclear sources. Because the wind/solar energy is loaded onto the grid intermittently, it forces fossil and nuclear to cycle up and down to compensate. Just like city vs. highway driving, this is vastly less efficient.

Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by greglindahl on Tuesday December 06, 2016 @04:37PM (#13118552)
Paying to have more renewable energy generated is not a gimmick, it's progress.

It's true that there's a storage problem to be solved. That doesn't mean that every single renewables project needs to solve it or become a gimmick.

Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by paul_f on Tuesday December 06, 2016 @07:29PM (#13119504)
The problem is that Google's claim is deceptive. What they are doing is great.
Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by axman6 on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @04:58AM (#13121524)
I don't agree it is deceptive, if Google paid for 1GW of renewable electricity to be generated and 1GW is contributed to the grid from renewable sources then everything is as it should be. If the EMF that gets to Google's servers happens to be provided by a nearby coal plant they have still caused 1GW to be produced by renewables. This is how the grid works, and how it has always worked, it's just that no one in the past has cared if it was coal, gas, hydro or something else they were getting it from. Organisations are now willing to pay a small premium to use an equal amount of energy as renewables are generated. Storage matters for the long term goal of a zero emissions grid, but is not necessary for the economics to work out and the benefits to be felt.
Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by greglindahl on Tuesday December 06, 2016 @07:33PM (#13119522)
Paragraphs 3, 4, and 5 of the NYT article look accurate to me. I have a hard time seeing how anyone who read the article would be deceived.
Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by hueving on Tuesday December 06, 2016 @10:47PM (#13120325)
More than half of the people in this thread think google is running on 100% renewable energy. They have been deceived.

Google is still using dirty energy, they are just offsetting it by returning extra to the grid when the wind is blowing and the sun is shining.

Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by greglindahl on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @12:25AM (#13120649)
"using" is a complicated word. If you don't like the usual way "using renewable energy" is used for electricity, by all means campaign against it, but there's nothing special about Google or this press release for this usage... and the New York Times article this discussion is about is quite clear.
Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by hueving on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @02:31AM (#13121095)
That's not the "usual way" it's used. If I want to use solar power for my home, I don't contribute to a fund building solar panels on a different continent and claim I'm "using renewable energy". However, that's exactly what google is doing here.
Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by greglindahl on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @02:41AM (#13121115)
Some people put solar panels on their home, other people pay someone else to install solar panels elsewhere. It's extremely common for businesses to choose the second, even if homeowners mostly choose the first.
Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by axman6 on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @08:46PM (#13127799)
Yeah I'm sorry this is complete nonsense, this is exactly how it works and has always worked. If Google pays for renewables to be produced, uses some energy that happened to be produced at a coal plant but someone else uses the energy from the solar/wind farm, then the benefit of using renewables has been materialised. It's not a hard concept, but somehow people struggle with the idea.
Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by nostrademons on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @12:52AM (#13120738)
I would bet that the article is inaccurate and the majority of this "renewable energy" is hydro. Google has taken great care to place its datacenters in locations that are close to affordable hydro power, and in many cases owns or has long-term exclusive leases on several power-generation plants within existing hydro dams.
Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by nostrademons on Tuesday December 06, 2016 @02:42PM (#13117636)
Well, it is a PR gimmick. I, for one, am glad for this PR gimmick and wish more companies would adopt similar PR gimmicks.
Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by PascLeRasc on Tuesday December 06, 2016 @07:03PM (#13119377)
I agree. I'm perfectly fine with a company "exploiting" their earth-friendliness for image. There are some things more important than the free market.
Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by aperetto on Tuesday December 06, 2016 @02:13PM (#13117373)
It's such a ridiculous statement, too. With his logic this guy would have to buy the cow that makes the milk he drinks in his coffee...
Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by crpatino on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @01:26PM (#13124828)
It is less ridiculous than you make it out to be.

Nobody forces you to buy a cow to put milk on your cofee, but if you go around offering "organic capuccinos" for sale, your customers could normally expect you to either milk the grass fed cow yourself or, more likely, purchase your milk from a certified provider that does so. They certainly don't expect you to claim that since you make a donation to some Amish charity in the other side of the country, you are entitled to slap a "organic" label to the same brand of industrial milk your competition next door uses and offers at half the price.

I don't see how this should be any different with Google.

Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by axman6 on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @08:49PM (#13127814)
This is just utter nonsense and shows a complete lack of how the electricity grid operates.
Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by crpatino on Thursday December 08, 2016 @01:40PM (#13132856)
Does it? I rather think that your criticism shows a complete lack of awareness of how the the public opinion operates.

Let's say for the sake of the argument that Google's datacenters consume 1% of the electricity in the US.

If Google were operating its datacenters with clean/renewable electricity produced on site, it means the technical problems are, for all practical purposes, already solved; and now everybody can just license their technology an imitate them. There still remains the economic and political problem of having the other 9x% of the country to jump on board, and invest the required resources to convert to renewables, but that's simply a matter of how much money is devoted to that. It could take us 100, or 50, or 20 years, but we'd know for certain that we will eventually get there.

Instead, we have Google claim to be operating their datacenters with clean energy, but instead they operate with whatever mix of clean&dirty energy is available from the local provider, and then go elsewhere and finance the production (let's say, same amount of kilowatts/hr) of renewable energy. That is still a good thing, since those investments would never had been done without the incentive, but there are 2 problems with that.

1. You call electricity "fungible", but it is not. You cannot generate the same amount of solar kWh per dollar in Alaska than in Arizona, the same way you cannot generate the same amount of hidro kWh/$ in Arizona than in Mississipi. By following economic rules, it is rational to assume that Google is picking the low hanging fruit first. Therefore, when the other companies try to emulate, they will find that the second 1% will be more expensive than the first, the third than the second, and so on...

2. The other big whale in the room is that renewable electricity, unlike coal-based, cannot be produced on demand. Until the problem with storage is solved, - and for what I have heard from people that has been doing this for many years it is far from solved, - you will need some form of fosil fuel to close the gaps when production is low. It is very easy to add 1% renewables to the general "fungible" pool of electricity in the grid, but 5% would be less so and I don't think it would be possible at all to do 50% with current technology, even if the production capacity was already in place.

So, what do you think? are my concerns really nonsense, or ridiculous?

Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by blazespin on Tuesday December 06, 2016 @02:13PM (#13117369)
Yeah, or maybe Big Oil is just pretty evil.
Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by philipkglass on Tuesday December 06, 2016 @02:44PM (#13117658)
I'd say the opposition right now is mostly Big Coal. If all coal and oil electrical generating capacity shut down and were replaced by renewables + gas it would be a net win for the oil and gas industry, because oil is a tiny fraction of electricity production and coal retirements boost gas demand. Gas is a flexible electricity source and a good complement to renewables. But a decade from now natural gas might be facing a significant competitive threat from renewables + storage.
Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by r00fus on Tuesday December 06, 2016 @06:08PM (#13119076)
Big Coal and Big Oil work together far more often than not. Extensive renewable energy would eliminate the massive profit of power utilities and refineries both.
Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by philipkglass on Tuesday December 06, 2016 @06:19PM (#13119133)
I would have agreed with you a few years ago, but coal producer antipathy toward O&G has increased a lot since fracking unleashed the cheap gas that has been eating their lunch. At the same time gas producers have softened their stance against climate action, calculating (correctly) that in the short-medium term coal-to-gas switching in the name of climate action can send a lot of new natural gas demand their way. As for the long term, either they don't care yet or don't really believe that natural gas and oil will eventually be in line for replacement too.
Re:Google says it will run entirely on renewable energy in 2017 by crdoconnor on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @06:55AM (#13121926)
>gas producers have softened their stance against climate action

They simply pretended that they were "cleaner" than coal and gas, which isn't really true:

http://www.newswise.com/articles/methane-leaks-can-make-frac...