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Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by philtar on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @03:14AM (#13061633)
>No it's not.

Yes, it is. That's like saying I prefer bash because it's the same on all platform as opposed to windows proprietary UI.

Is latex powerful? Yes. Is it easy? Not for the average user.

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by adimitrov on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @03:28AM (#13061684)
> Is latex powerful? Yes. Is it easy? Not for the average user.

Have you tried writing technical reports in Word? It's a nightmare. Word's numbering and reference functionality, not to mention its citation functions are way worse than what you can achieve with TeX. Cooperating on writing the same document with many people? Yeah, forget about it. One guy has Mac OS with one Word version and then you have three others with different combinations of Windows/Word, and the whole thing implodes in a cascade of formatting glitches.

Also, I'd say that if you can't write your technical report in LaTeX because LaTeX is too hard, let's go shopping (in the Microsoft App Store), then maybe you shouldn't be writing a technical report.

Not to mention that nobody has to write an ounce of LaTeX since the advent of pandoc.

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by wallacoloo on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @03:52AM (#13061761)
Saying that the alternatives are hard does not do anything to prove that LaTeX is easy.

When you make a syntax error (missing closing brace, forgot to escape that underscore, etc), what's the probability that the latex error message will be at all relevant to the source of the error? It's pretty damn low. In my experience, debugging LaTeX is anything but easy.

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by adimitrov on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @04:11AM (#13061835)
Yes, typesetting documents isn't easy, and it takes skill. Yes, LaTeX's error reporting is a bloody mess straight out of the 80s.

Word may make it easier to half-ass something. But its error reporting is way worse than LaTeX's — it doesn't have any. If something's fucked up, it's fucked up, and good luck finding out what you did wrong. Writing a consistently styled, readable and good looking document in Word is anything but easy.

So we're back to square one: typesetting a document is hard, and there is no software solution that makes it easy (for simple stuff, pandoc comes close.) You'll have to learn to do it.

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by IshKebab on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @06:29AM (#13062373)
Have you tried writing technical reports in LyX? It's not a nightmare and you can see what it looks like.
Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by raesene6 on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @06:53AM (#13062455)
To provide a counterpoint, I've been writing Technical reports in word for about 15 years, using it for about 20, works fine for most things I've seen.

Like any complex program there are things to learn and quirks to get used to, but it can be a very powerful platform once you get past that.

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by pqs on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @04:08AM (#13061825)
Maybe LaTeX is not easy, but writing a scientific PhD dissertation in LaTeX is easier than doing so in Word. I did it in LaTeX. I had no problems. My wife did it in Word, and we both spend hours trying to solve tons of stupid Word related problems.

edits: typos.

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by ageofwant on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @06:44AM (#13062418)
20 years ago I wrote my dissertation using LaTeX. Two years ago I found it in old backups and immediately stuck it into a git repo, build a LaTeX hosting docker container and built the whole ~120 page doc using the makefile I made at the time. I then proceeded to marvel at the ingenuity of people, the hubris of a young man and the futility of it all. I then quenched the rising tide of existential angst with a few craft beers I purchased using proceeds from my day job building silly web-apps in JavaScript for a big multinational mining company.

Had I written it in word I would have tossed the disk into the trash, and watched a movie.

LaTeX, the gift that keeps on giving.

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by CmdrSprinkles on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @05:18AM (#13062123)
And for actual publications and the like, latex is indeed awesome and there is a strong argument for superiority.

But the ``problem'' is people who insist on using it for everything. Have a memo? Better set up a repo. Writing a report for a manger? Latex!

With the simpler things where you won't be cross referencing constantly and any figures that you have you want absolute control over placement, Word is the way to go. And pretty much the moment you are done your dissertation, that is the majority of what you'll write. Even in academia you'll likely spend more time writing grants and memos than papers. And, with at least the former, what matters most is having the figure easily seen and fitting the format requirements (specifically page count).

Use the best tool for any given job.

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by sidarape on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @09:02AM (#13063051)
I agree. The other day, I had to write a 1-page project proposal for a PhD scholarship and they were giving the font to use and its size, and the margins. I had almost no mathematical symbol to use. One of the professors said that it looks unprofessional to not use Latex. I mean, I could have use Latex and I would have looked like exactly the same given the requirements. I just did it in LibreOffice because that was really the simplest I could have done.
Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by ssivark on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @10:33AM (#13063620)
To get an idea of what people might mean when they say that LaTeX looks more professional, see this: http://www.zinktypografie.nl/latex.php?lang=en

Oftentimes, I can (correctly) correlate "weird" looking documents with MS Word or Open/LibreOffice, eg: when reading papers. It's a surprising subconscious estimate and I don't know what throws my sensibilities off! Maybe I'm used to a higher standard of typesetting, or maybe it's just that I'm used to reading LaTeX output. I have heard the same from multiple academics who have spent some years looking at LaTeX output.

I wouldn't be surprised if people spent more time looking at beautiful documents, compared to uglier counterparts. Just like any other UX. As always, the document creator has to decide whether it's worth the extra effort.

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by chronial on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @03:11PM (#13065853)
Word 2010 supports ligatures, old-style and lining numbers, kerning and rare and historical letters and ligatures:

http://www.howtogeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/435x597x...

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by petters on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @01:12PM (#13064883)
Latex typography looks vastly better than Word or LibreOffice, even when the font, margins and size are fixed.
Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by thanatropism on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @10:30AM (#13063606)
Writing slides for a scientific talk too. Or a bullet-text-heavy slides for that matter.

OTOH: for many business cases where text is kept sparse and randomly placed PowerPoint excels. And new versions have somewhat taken Tufte's criticism to heart -- the smart, make-a-diagram-for-text enable a lot of conceptual collaboration across a widely multidisciplinar organization. I mean, sometimes you're writing documentation for your fellow nerds (i.e. the equations behind some code you wrote) and sometimes you're explaining economic concepts to lawyers.

(I think (we) nerds tend to undervalue the work and insights of people like lawyers and accountants; and the importance of clear communication. But I digress on a digression...)

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by dagw on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @05:04AM (#13062064)
Writing a dissertation in word is fine. Preparing for a dissertation for print in word is a pain in the ass. The 'correct' way to do it is to write in Word, do citations in Endnote, and then lay the whole thing out in InDesign.
Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by wietze on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @04:41AM (#13061958)
Let me be the guy that brings this article in: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....

"LaTeX users were slower than Word users, wrote less text, made more typesetting, grammatical, and formatting errors"

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by MereInterest on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @06:25AM (#13062364)
Also, the usual rebuttal to that article. http://tex.stackexchange.com/a/219581. Anything that did not perfectly reproduce the typesetting of a reference document, they counted as a typesetting error. Any word placement at the end of one line as opposed to the start of the next, for example. The sort of thing that LaTeX handles automatically, and better than humans.
Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by nekopa on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @06:43AM (#13062416)
Murphy's law in action, there was a correction made to the paper you quote, so I clicked through to see what was corrected:

Notice of Republication

This article was republished on March 30, 2015, to correct the sizing and placement of the figures; none of the article content was changed. The publisher apologizes for the original layout errors. Please download this article again to view the corrected version. The originally published, uncorrected article and the republished, corrected article are provided here for reference.

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by thanatropism on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @10:34AM (#13063634)
> made more typesetting

Agh, I keep on making the mistake of doing homework directly to LaTeX. It seems that you're able to think directly from the page but it ultimately slows you down. I know way too much about mathematical typesetting as it is -- before I start making up rules about how Expectation should be \mathsf{E} and writing huge custom command files.

This one exam I started doing all the exercises in the book into LaTeX. As an aspiring mathematician, I need to learn to better appreciate pencil and paper.

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by adrianN on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @03:33AM (#13061703)
For an average document that doesn't do anything special, Latex is extremely simple. It only gets complicated if you want to deviate from the design that your document class uses by default.

The average user of course doesn't even know what the difference between a text editor and MS Word is but I'd argue that it's not much harder to learn using something like LyX than learning Word. Word only wins because of peer pressure. Almost all offices use MS Office, so you're expected to use that, even for documents where simple Markdown would be completely sufficient.

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by TeMPOraL on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @03:49AM (#13061746)
> It only gets complicated if you want to deviate from the design that your document class uses by default.

Which is always, because defaults are ugly as hell. Might work for math papers, but not much else.

My only real issue with LaTeX though is its error reporting, which is less readable than C++ template metaprogramming fails, and the fact you have to compile the same file $magic times in a row to get a stable render.

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by mrkgnao on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @04:31AM (#13061919)
> the fact you have to compile the same file $magic times in a row to get a stable render.

You should look into LatexMk[0].

[0]: http://mg.readthedocs.io/latexmk.html

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by fdgdasfadsf on Wednesday November 30, 2016 @04:57AM (#13069552)
I wish I could upvote this more than once. Anyway who is writing non-trivial documents in LaTeX will benefit from this.
Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by TeMPOraL on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @04:33AM (#13061923)
Haven't heard of that, thanks.
Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by scatty on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @04:00AM (#13061796)
> My only real issue with LaTeX though is its error reporting, which is less readable than C++ template metaprogramming fails

Oh, that's so true. I've spend far to many hours trying to help debug LaTeX code from friends and coworkers.

I'd give Office users that MS Office is easier to use if you want to write one page of plain text without anything else but above that Office is just a huge pain in the a... But the biggest problem I have with Office isn't whether it's hard to use or not but that the text it produces is simply ugly. Especially so if you have to work between different versions of MS Office and maybe even an OO user within the loop. (That would than probably be me...) The text layout MS Office produces is simply hideous.

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by railorsi on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @03:56AM (#13061777)
> Which is always, because defaults are ugly as hell. Might work for math papers, but not much else.

There are shittons of templates.

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by adrianN on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @04:27AM (#13061902)
You don't have to compile the same file a magic number of times. You either click the button in your GUI or you use latexmk or texify.

The error messages suck though, that's true.

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by TeMPOraL on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @04:31AM (#13061920)
Does GUI LaTeX tools run the compilation several times in the background? Because last time I checked, you absolutely had to run it several times, if you wanted to have all your references correct.

EDIT: nevermind, I didn't know Latexmk is a thing and is popular.

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by auxym on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @07:07AM (#13062533)
Lyx for one does run latex/bibtex as many times as required.
Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by dubberx on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @11:26AM (#13064012)
> have to compile the same file $magic times

I now use rubber[0] to avoid this. I especially like that it has a --clean option :)

[0]: https://launchpad.net/rubber

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by ryandrake on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @10:07AM (#13063431)
I agree. I consider myself a fairly technical guy. Given the breathless praise for it anytime it's mentioned, I've tried to get into LaTeX off and on throughout the years, but it's just a massive learning cliff. I still haven't figured out how to change formatting or fonts, so every document I write in it has that standard "PhD dissertation" look. I can pick up a new programming language in a weekend, but I still don't "get" TeX.
Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by fdgdasfadsf on Wednesday November 30, 2016 @04:59AM (#13069556)
Search online for "xelatex". It's latex for the 21st century.
Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by titanix2 on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @11:24AM (#13064003)
Maybe it's not when writing plain English, but as soon as you want to include tricky Unicode characters it's not anymore.

I spend hours trying to fix bugs for my master dissertation and gave up with two unfixed problems: (1) missing line breaking in references containing accentuated characters and (2) including some non BMP code-point character.

And some package can mess up with some other packages so coming with a solution can sometime break another thing.

Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by itazula on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @03:25AM (#13061674)
The "average" user isn't aware of the alternative that is LaTeX. Watching a few tutorials is an easy way to start. For example, see https://www.sharelatex.com/blog/latex-guides/beginners-tutor... and go from there.
Re:Pwning coworkers thanks to LaTeX by iveqy on Tuesday November 29, 2016 @03:50AM (#13061753)
I would say it's a huge difference between easy to use and easy to learn.

LaTeX is easy to use, but not easy to learn.