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Re:Tesla Shock Means Global Gasoline Demand Has All but Peaked by greglindahl on Friday November 25, 2016 @04:09PM (#13039844)
Tesla discontinued battery swap because people do prefer to spend 1/2 hour charging, even when traveling with sleeping children.

Note that this is only an issue for long-distance travel; for day-to-day driving, most people will charge in their garage, their apartment's garage, or at a street-side charger.

Re:Tesla Shock Means Global Gasoline Demand Has All but Peaked by bonzini on Friday November 25, 2016 @04:22PM (#13039941)
Well, there was one battery swap station, and you had to book it and pay for it. Not exactly encouraging.

Who is going to scale the street-side charger network? In Europe, a lot of cars are parked outdoors during the night. In smaller towns, parking spots around residential areas aren't even painted.

Many other cars are parked in shared garages that don't guarantee one plug per car. I guess garage owners could install the chargers (but that would be hundreds of kW if electric cars were really commonplace---that is expensive infrastructure) and meters, but still it's hard to reach critical mass.

Re:Tesla Shock Means Global Gasoline Demand Has All but Peaked by greglindahl on Friday November 25, 2016 @04:36PM (#13040030)
I'm not sure how to reply, given that the things you say are hard are beginning to happen already.
Re:Tesla Shock Means Global Gasoline Demand Has All but Peaked by bonzini on Friday November 25, 2016 @04:57PM (#13040151)
In a handful of big metropolitan areas. Good luck doing that throughout multiple continents. Most European countries are still on the order of magnitude of 1000 total EVs sold per year. Growing, sure, but still hardly a serious market penetration.

And I am talking about problems with scaling: "beginning to happen" and "available for everyone who needs it" is not the same as "available for everyone". Installing a dozen chargers, unused most of the time, in a shopping mall's 1000-car parking lot is not the same as installing a few hundred chargers in a multistorey parking downtown that previously only needed to power some neons.

Re:Tesla Shock Means Global Gasoline Demand Has All but Peaked by mseebach on Saturday November 26, 2016 @06:09AM (#13042935)
Your error seems to be that you insist on seeing a big-bang overnight solution that works for Everyone(tm). That never happens.

There are millions of people in Europe who has a private garage/carport/parking spot and can afford to install a charger there, and who lives within round trip battery capacity of where they need to go. Millions more who don't, but whose employers can be convinced to install chargers. That's more than enough for the kind of critical mass where apartment block landlords, employers and shopping centre parking lots will start to install chargers, not for novelty or green credentials, but for naked self interest. It's not overnight, but it will be very quick.

Re:Tesla Shock Means Global Gasoline Demand Has All but Peaked by FireBeyond on Friday November 25, 2016 @05:37PM (#13040364)
"Tesla discontinued battery swap because people do prefer to spend 1/2 hour charging, even when traveling with sleeping children."

That was set up to fail.

There was only one battery swap station. It was aimed at people commuting between LA and SF. Except:

- you had to book in advance to use it

- you had to pay a fee to use it

- it was set up across the street from a Tesla Supercharger

- despite ostensibly being for the commute between those cities, it was actually 15 miles away from the freeway, making for a significant detour

If I was Elon Musk and wanted to demonstrate how people would much rather use charging stations than any kind of battery swap program, I think the above is a pretty good example of how I'd set up my battery swap program (for failure).

Re:Tesla Shock Means Global Gasoline Demand Has All but Peaked by Reason077 on Friday November 25, 2016 @07:12PM (#13040883)
Battery swap doesn't really scale. It's hard to imagine battery swap stations being set up wherever you could conceivably need one, with all the associated infrastructure and labor costs, just so you can swap a battery in 10 minutes rather than supercharge in 30.

And remember, chargers of the future will be faster still. CCS has been designed to scale to at least 300kW.

Re:Tesla Shock Means Global Gasoline Demand Has All but Peaked by shalmanese on Friday November 25, 2016 @10:26PM (#13041551)
The economics completely change with fleet vehicles (aka, self driving taxis). Instead of taking an entire car out of commission for half an hour, you can just replace the battery in 1 minute and keep the car on the road and earning money. Because both the car and battery swap station is owned by the same company, there's no arbitrage between trading an old, worn out battery and a new battery and fleet cars can be designed alongside the swap station to make the entire process entirely automated.

But the big plus is that if you design a fleet system around battery swap, you can get away with puny batteries on the vehicles. A battery sufficient for 1 - 2 hours of city driving is optimal which saves both cost and weight for the vehicles. Instead of relying on expensive, power dense advanced Lithium batteries, you can shove cheap batteries into the thing, scatter the entire city with drive-thru swap stations and drive the cost of transportation way down.

Re:Tesla Shock Means Global Gasoline Demand Has All but Peaked by tachyonbeam on Saturday November 26, 2016 @12:27AM (#13041871)
While that's true, I think you can also have taxis stop at charging stations more often when they aren't in use. Particularly if you have self-driving taxis, you're not bothering passengers by doing that. You could even have trucks with large batteries which act as mobile charging stations.
Re:Tesla Shock Means Global Gasoline Demand Has All but Peaked by NotSammyHagar on Saturday November 26, 2016 @01:28AM (#13042077)
i strongly disagree with your thesis that a 1-2 hour long driving capacity sized-battery is optimal. If you have an electric car, being able to not constantly worry about whether you can drive home is far more important than the cost of recharging. its so cheap it almost doesn't matter, like $10 for an 85kwh tesla. not worrying about running out of power is the big value.
Re:Tesla Shock Means Global Gasoline Demand Has All but Peaked by shalmanese on Saturday November 26, 2016 @02:27AM (#13042297)
Yes, for individually owned cars, range anxiety is a real thing. I'm talking about electric taxis which shuttle multiple people around on short trips throughout the day.
Re:Tesla Shock Means Global Gasoline Demand Has All but Peaked by superdude on Friday November 25, 2016 @08:01PM (#13041083)
Yeah, it definitely seemed like it was too complicated of a process to be able to be anyone near as simple as recharging or refueling is.
Re:Tesla Shock Means Global Gasoline Demand Has All but Peaked by jessaustin on Friday November 25, 2016 @10:11PM (#13041492)
From first principles, a battery swap station seems to add just one relatively isolated component to an existing charge station... they would use the same power infrastructure, the same authorization protocols, the same locations...
Re:Tesla Shock Means Global Gasoline Demand Has All but Peaked by greglindahl on Friday November 25, 2016 @06:04PM (#13040506)
15 miles from the freeway? Try less than a mile from I-5: https://goo.gl/maps/bDJACbS8XNE2

As a Tesla owner, I didn't think all of the past back-and-forth about the swap station in blogs was that interesting. I eat dinner in Harris Ranch.

Re:Tesla Shock Means Global Gasoline Demand Has All but Peaked by ZeroGravitas on Friday November 25, 2016 @05:46PM (#13040394)
I believe that battery swap was effectively a scam. There was some arbitrary full recharge time that had to be met to access some rebate program, and Tesla did exactly as much as they needed to do to meet the terms and then stopped.

Electric cars are the future, and Tesla's are cool, so don't take this as a negative. The complexity of battery swapping was in ownership of the batteries, not in the physical swapping. It maybe makes sense for big taxi firms, but not for standard consumers.

edit: adding a link with some corroboration since I got downvoted: http://insideevs.com/carb-zev-program-changes-tesla-takes-la...