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Re:EmDrive study officially published by jack9 on Saturday November 19, 2016 @03:56PM (#12995610)
> Actually it's not as much useful as an engine as it may seem,

It's worth more than any existing or previous theoretical engine. Put this rotating around a center point. Now put 1000s of them. Now we have power generation for outposts in space. The implications of a working EM drive are staggering.

Re:EmDrive study officially published by CydeWeys on Saturday November 19, 2016 @05:37PM (#12996107)
The emdrive (at least the current version) requires way more power per Newton of force than even ion engines, which are themselves famously power hungry. You definitely could not get free energy out of an emdrive because the amount of power required to run it is way more than you'd get out.

The advantage of the emdrive is that it does not require reaction mass, at the cost of incredibly high power consumption. Unfortunately that makes it not really viable for anything; ion drives are limited by power, not reaction mass, so the emdrive is actually worse because it uses way more in power than it saves in not needing reaction mass.

Re:EmDrive study officially published by wcoenen on Saturday November 19, 2016 @06:07PM (#12996256)
The drive being power hungry would not change the fact that kinetic energy goes up quadratically with speed (E=(m*v^2)/2) while this drive supposedly can keep accelerating with only constant power input. So kinetic energy would go up quadratically with time while expended energy only goes up linearly. You'd get free energy very soon.

Since violation of conservation of energy is very unlikely, I'd say that this is a sign that the drive doesn't actually work. Or at least that there is some gotcha that we haven't understood yet.

Re:EmDrive study officially published by CydeWeys on Saturday November 19, 2016 @07:32PM (#12996570)
Anything keeps accelerating with only constant power input. That's literally how all rockets in a vacuum work. Nothing special with an emdrive there. It doesn't mean that perpetual motion is possible, it just means that you're wrong about the ramifications of kinetic energy vis a vis power generation.
Re:EmDrive study officially published by wcoenen on Saturday November 19, 2016 @09:59PM (#12997017)
A rocket using chemical energy at a constant rate does not have this problem, because the excess energy it seems to gain from kinetic energy going up quadratically is balanced by a decrease in the kinetic energy that the expelled reaction mass is left with.
Re:EmDrive study officially published by MPSimmons on Saturday November 19, 2016 @11:02PM (#12997205)
If you think of mass as the deformation of spacetime, mass reaction engines push off the wake from expelling mass rapidly in one direction to go in the other direction.

The EM Drive is an energy reaction engine, rather than a mass reaction engine (if it works as described), so instead of pushing off wake, it uses energy itself to "deepen the fold", as it were, and increase speed (and mass, since the two are exchanged).

That's interesting. I've never considered that the very act of increasing the velocity of the EM Drive would actually increase its mass. Hrm.

Re:EmDrive study officially published by CydeWeys on Sunday November 20, 2016 @12:36AM (#12997456)
Not disagreeing with you there, but I don't see how that leads to free energy from an emdrive. How exactly do you get more energy out than you put in?

And anyway, kinetic energy isn't a conserved quantity. It can be converted into potential energy in a gravity well, or lost entirely in inelastic collisions. Momentum is the quantity that is always conserved, and that is what the emdrive violates directly (though still not in a way that allows for perpetual motion or free power, near as I can tell).

Re:EmDrive study officially published by wcoenen on Monday November 21, 2016 @03:18AM (#13003932)
As jack9 proposed higher up in this thread, you could put the EmDrive on the outside of a rotating system to provide constant torque, which accelerates the rotation. Then wait until the system has sped up to the point where the kinetic energy increases faster than the power you put in. Then use the whole thing to drive a generator.
Re:EmDrive study officially published by sathackr on Saturday November 19, 2016 @07:23PM (#12996529)
I would think that once we determine the cause of the thrust, assuming it is real, the design of the 'drive' might be improved to increase efficiency. We currently don't even know what characteristics of the device are causing the generation of thrust.

The first internal combustion engines were quite inefficient as well.

Re:EmDrive study officially published by CydeWeys on Saturday November 19, 2016 @07:36PM (#12996585)
Here's hoping! It's so unbelievably inefficient right now though, it's hard to imagine it improving by orders of magnitude. The original internal combustion engines were comparatively way more efficient.
Re:EmDrive study officially published by UncleSlacky on Monday November 21, 2016 @10:16AM (#13005961)
As I understand it, the version under test here was simply a proof-of-concept, not optimized for maximum efficiency. There are also plans for a version with a superconducting frustum, which should be even more efficient...
Re:EmDrive study officially published by krylon on Saturday November 19, 2016 @04:01PM (#12995641)
Naive questions from someone who does not understand a lot about physics (to put it mildly): Did you just invent the perpetuum mobile, or did I misunderstand what you said? Or do I just not understand how this thing is supposed to work?
Re:EmDrive study officially published by gus_massa on Saturday November 19, 2016 @04:47PM (#12995874)
Actually, yes!

By special relativity you can't break the momentum conservation principle without breaking the energy conservation principle.

Somehow most people feel more comfortable dismissing the momentum conservation principle, but they are intertwined.

A carousel with Emdrives like the described in the previous comment should be a perpetual mobile and create energy if it's spinning in the right direction. (It will destroy energy in the reverse direction, so be careful.)

[Anyway, I think that the emdrive doesn't work and the conservation of energy and momentum are safe.]

Re:EmDrive study officially published by MPSimmons on Saturday November 19, 2016 @10:58PM (#12997184)
The Emdrive takes energy, though, doesn't it? It's not like you can plug it in and have it run, unless I misunderstand a lot of claims.
Re:EmDrive study officially published by Tuna-Fish on Sunday November 20, 2016 @09:17AM (#12998942)
Yes.

However, any true reactionless thrust is equivalent to a perpetual motion machine, because reactionless thrust drives produce the same acceleration regardless of speed, but the kinetic energy produced by the same acceleration goes up as the speed goes up.

If you accelerate one kg from 0m/s to 1m/s, you impart 0.5joules of energy on it. If you accelerate it from 1m/s to 2m/s, you impart 1.5joules of energy on it. If you accelerate it from 2m/s to 3m/s, you impart 2.5 joules of energy on it, and so on and so on. Each added m/s costs more in energy.

A reactionless drive working in a system with no preferred frame would add the same amount of acceleration for the same amount of cost, regardless of how much energy there already is. This would mean that eventually it would be going fast enough that the added kinetic energy would be more than however much energy it draws in. Then you can build a gigantic carousel that is spinned on the rim and takes energy from the middle and feeds some back in to move it, and now you have perpetual motion.

This is why no real physicist actually thinks that this will be reactionless thrust. However, that does not necessarily mean it's useless. If it, for example, allows you to push against the earth's magnetic field more weight-efficiently than current magnetic propulsion systems, it would be a major win for satellite stationkeeping.

Re:EmDrive study officially published by MPSimmons on Sunday November 20, 2016 @09:30PM (#13002637)
> reactionless thrust drives produce the same acceleration regardless of speed

A) Where is that in the paper? Or am I missing something elementary to this?

B) We don't even know if it produces the same level of thrust as speed increases. If it produces the same level of thrust across all speeds, then we have a problem, because as velocity increases, so does mass, and the same level of thrust would produce less acceleration over time, because of the increase in mass. Of course, that may only effect things at relativistic speeds.

Re:EmDrive study officially published by Tuna-Fish on Monday November 21, 2016 @12:49PM (#13007326)
Speed relative to what, exactly? There are no preferred reference frames. A true reactionless thruster could always treat itself as if it's initial speed was 0, and so it took 0.5J to accelerate by 1m/s.

Rockets do that too, but they get away with it because they stored the necessary extra energy into the kinetic energy of the fuel.

If there was a reactionless thruster that did, in fact, get less efficient at higher speeds, then that would also be world-shattering physics news, because then you could measure it's performance after accelerating in different directions and eventually get a true rest frame that is privileged over the rest of the reference frames out of it.

Re:EmDrive study officially published by sethrin on Sunday November 20, 2016 @09:04AM (#12998878)
Put two emdrives on the ends of a rotating beam. Use the violation of conservation of energy/momentum to drive a generator. Infinite speed and energy are yours to command!
Re:EmDrive study officially published by MPSimmons on Sunday November 20, 2016 @09:19PM (#13002583)
Driving the generator is going to rob the system of energy. That should be obvious, right? Nothing in the matter/energy equation is changing. This drive would just take electrical energy and convert it into kinetic energy.
Re:EmDrive study officially published by Filligree on Saturday November 19, 2016 @04:20PM (#12995758)
He did, yeah. If it works as described, then you'd expect it to break conservation of energy along with conservation of momentum.

That's another good reason to think it doesn't work.

Re:EmDrive study officially published by CydeWeys on Saturday November 19, 2016 @05:38PM (#12996113)
He did not. The emdrive requires a very large amount of power to operate, way more per Newton than even an ion drive.
Re:EmDrive study officially published by jack9 on Sunday November 20, 2016 @01:21AM (#12997564)
> Did you just invent the perpetuum mobile,

That's the implication of the EM Drive. I didn't invent it, it's the very first thing that you think of once you violate the momentum conservation principle. This is why it's unlikely to be true, but at the same time an alchemists dream scenario.

Re:EmDrive study officially published by fooker on Saturday November 19, 2016 @04:15PM (#12995723)
This takes a huge amount of electricity to work.
Re:EmDrive study officially published by pugworthy on Saturday November 19, 2016 @05:17PM (#12996015)
What makes the power to power them?
Re:EmDrive study officially published by binarycoffee on Saturday November 19, 2016 @05:35PM (#12996098)
easy: 1000000's of them rotating around a fixed point!