Anyhow, take out the vitriol and your statement is basically "do you realize that you're supporting the quality of life of software developers?" Yes. Yes I am. I'm a software developer and this stuff is important. I'm opposed to moving towards a negotiated position that gives employers more at the expense of software developers. These are not unreasonable positions to hold.
editing to add in a quote from parent downthread:
>yes, I was in some mid-management level
Keep that in mind as you read comments.
You see your position as supporting software developers, which is reasonable. It's not reasonable to expect other software developers to refuse to raise rational points of inquiry that you've based your argument on because it may result in weakening your argument on the merits. It demonstrates that you care more about winning than about the truth. As a result, you're responding to someone who is behaving more rationally than you with an emotional response and personal attacks.
> It's not reasonable to expect other software developers to refuse to raise rational points of inquiry that you've based your argument on because it may result in weakening your argument on the merits.
What argument are you claiming is weakened? GP is saying that our overall, industry-wide labor bargaining position is weakened when a subset of us willingly take suboptimal work-hour or payment arrangements - really they're giving the companies and hiring side of the discussions all of the leverage over us while dropping our price floor out from under us.
If that sort of thing continues, it signals to the market that we are not skilled labor, just labor. And then all the software jobs run overseas where they are cheaper, just like manufacturing has done over the last 50 years (and software has already begun to).
Maybe the original comment GP's response to wasn't the right one - but it's the right sentiment in this discussion of whether work-life balance is a good thing. How is that even a question?
I'm not saying any argument is weakened. This is analogous to what I saw:
1. Article claims X, which is good for software devs as a whole.
2. Software dev #1 says "Hmm...is X even true? Doesn't make sense for reasons A, B, and C."
3. Software dev #2 says "Hey, we're trying to negotiate here and it doesn't matter if X is true or not. You shouldn't even be pointing out that it might not be true and that we should have more evidence. You're a traitor!"
Sorry, but I have a lot more respect for software dev #1's position than software dev #2's position. I want to be associated with a community of people who are looking for the truth, even if it leads them somewhere difficult, not protecting themselves at the expense of others, truth be damned.
And I certainly don't want to be associated with a group that not only doesn't want the truth, but yells at anyone within that group who dares to challenge the consensus. Ugh.
The problem is that hacker news is not a place where it's safe to ignore the political effects of your speech and focus purely on epistemic truth. Private mailing list? Sure. In person? Sure. On a public forum where management types will imply that you're an overpaid lazy hipster? Yeah no.
If you want a place where people can focus on finding out what's true, you need to make it safe to do that. You're never going to get a truth-seeking discussion about gender or race on r/SRS for exactly that reason. Hacker News is better than most because it's well moderated, but it can't and won't be that way for things that touch on the economic relationships between software developers and their employers.
This is simultaneously: a) a bizarrely uncharitable view of "management types" and their intelligence level, b) a clear indication that you don't think the evidence is very good, and c) a ridiculously impractical view of how impossible it is to keep a simple thought from spreading, let alone just occurring.
The fact that the person you were responding to is, in your words, a "management type", and came up with this objection should show how dumb it is to try and keep it out of the discussion. They can clearly think of this objection on their own.
If you can, and you say that you can, and you don't complain about it, then that becomes expected. This is as true of wearing a suit and tie to work as it is for putting in long hours. Finance is in a really shitty place because of this and I don't want the tech scene to follow suit.
Management wants to protect the company's profit at the expense of employees, so why shouldn't the employees push back and try to protect their quality of life?
> I'm not saying any argument is weakened.
Let's be consistent.
> I want to be associated with a community of people who are looking for the truth, even if it leads them somewhere difficult, not protecting themselves at the expense of others
A few things:
1. Nobody here has said "don't talk about it, period". Even Software dev #2 from your example has further commented that the criticism is aimed at the forum rather than the topic, due to its high visibility among people who often create labor policies
2. What exactly is "difficult" about a truth backed by scientific data? Also, what in aetherson's original, entirely-opinion comment resembles truth? They themselves are admitting a dearth of data on the issue, then proceed to classify the 40-hour workweek as "wishful thinking" and "probably mostly untrue" - again, without any data to support. How is that a quest for truth again?
3. Who are these "others" you say we are protecting themselves at the expense of? I'm really having difficulty understanding how a plea for labor solidarity alienates anyone except those who profit from undervaluing labor - i.e. management and moneygrubbers.
>And I certainly don't want to be associated with a group that not only doesn't want the truth, but yells at anyone within that group who dares to challenge the consensus.
A few more things:
1. Please tell me what part of saying "I'm sad" and "please don't" in ThrustVectoring's original response is yelling, again?
2. I'm not sure where you live, but where I live class consciousness and work-life balance is decidedly not the consensus. The consensus is actually very clearly aligned with aetherson's claims - that "working lots of hours is totally fine probably don't worry about it", and that as long as you're getting yours everything is fine. It doesn't even seem to be the consensus in this very thread - so it might be prudent to examine why you feel attacked as a minority when you very clearly aren't holding a minority opinion.
3. You haven't actually engaged with any of the arguments here about labor solidarity, but have instead managed to make the conversation about how mean the big scary class-conscious consensus is to the little folk who dare to question whether working more hours in a week might be a good thing. I have a hard time taking this as a serious discussion if you won't grapple with the issues on a substantive level.
Associate with whatever group you like, but it is not the responsibility of people to make you comfortable with ideas you don't like. It's your job to figure out why they make you uncomfortable and investigate that anxiety - or not, you could just do what you did here and dismiss all discussion because people were being mean and "yelling".
Thanks for the chat.
I didn't engage on the merits of the discussion for the same reason I didn't say that X is necessarily weakened as an argument (you completely skipped the word "if" in your reading of first quote above), which is that I don't have a particular dog in this fight.
But it's so lazy and intellectually dishonest to fault someone for pointing out that maybe we need more evidence. And to then basically call them a traitor? I felt like commenting on it. So I did. Without any disclaimers of any former mgmt experience so I guess I'm a monster as well.
Enough entertainment for one night, I'm out :)
As far as the ad hominem goes - that's the appropriate response to the social status implications of the "easy hipster" comment.
That is the perception people have on SV developers, for right or wrong.
Meanwhile, I'm from Sweden so I'm perhaps just an outside observer to this spectacle.. but at least from my perspective, SV developers are generally speaking overpaid. Well, at least compared to Swedish/European developers. :)
If you're reading it, it's for you.
>Well, at the moment I'm (possibly temporarily) retired, doing hobby projects. I have never felt the urge to cross any picket lines.
Not mentioning that you're former management is extremely dishonest. Derailing pro-worker discussions like this with condescension and dishonesty is extraordinarily unethical.
Even if the person you're responding to on some internet forum is the president of the Foundation For Keeping Software Developers from Being Overpaid, it's not unethical for them to jump into a discussion on the merits without disclosing that fact.
Why are you so afraid of having a frank discussion about this, with anyone? Slinging around terms like "extraordinarily unethical" when they're not even remotely warranted just makes it seem like you have little faith that your position makes any rational sense.
For the record - they wanted me to be president, but I declined. I am merely the secretary of said foundation.
Saying that you're retired and working on hobby projects is technically true, but in context heavily implies that you did not have a management background. It's not technically lying, but you can mislead people extremely well by saying particular true things in a particular way. That's why I called it "dishonesty" instead of "lying".
And "jump into a discussion on the merits" isn't how I'd characterize their behavior so far. Most of what they've done is snark and implications that play stupid bullshit status games.
Saying that you're retired and working on hobby projects is technically true, but in context heavily implies that you did not have a management background.
How on earth is this true? In what universe does someone who is retired except for some hobby projects mean that they were never in management? I literally don't know how to parse that.
And even if it is, how does someone who was "former management" now have no credibility to talk about work/life balance or whether developers are overpaid or underpaid? They don't have a particular dog in the fight anymore, right? Unless, as I suspect, you think that they're "different" somehow, not part of the same class of people as you, and they'll "stick with their own kind."
Every comment you've made seems to me to be bigotry with a thin veneer. I don't know, maybe I'm just privileged in that I've never been in a struggle of labor vs. management. Just don't see the world in those terms. I'm sure you think that means that of course I'm engaged in that struggle, and I'm either lying (because I'm in management), or getting screwed (because I'm labor and management is always screwing labor whether they know it or not). Shrug. I'm happy. Not sure what else to tell you.
The only one here who I see playing status games and pumping up the us vs. them mentality is you.