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A comment on How settling Mars could create a new human species.

Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by mc32 on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:12PM (#12901990)
A different question altogether, but interesting none the less, let's say Russia or China get to colonize Mars first, then let's say they find a safe way to thrive there. could they then by extension manage new colonization of Mars the same way we colonized earth? That is the colonizer could regulate who might get to further colonize Mars --ie require a kind of interplanetary visa (if we allow many people from many places on Earth have the means to get there)? Are there treaties which require any colonizer to allow other people to set a foothold there? And what if the new Martians just declare independence? Do we cross our arms?
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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by azdle on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:21PM (#12902074)
There is the Outer Space Treaty [1]:

> The treaty explicitly forbids any government from claiming a celestial resource such as the Moon or a planet.[3] Art. II of the Treaty states that "outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means". However, the State that launches a space object retains jurisdiction and control over that object.[4] The State is also liable for damages caused by their space object.[5]

I assume "other celestial bodies" would include other planets.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty

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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by ChuckMcM on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:38PM (#12902233)
Yes, and countries can, and do, remove themselves from treaties when they feel it is in their best interest. The most critical one in our time was the anti-ballistic missile treaty which the US withdrew from in 2001.

If a country felt they could control access to and maintain control over, a celestial body I could imagine them withdrawing from the treaty and claiming that body as their own.

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/13/international/bush-pulls-o...

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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by Kurimo on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @03:36PM (#12903690)
It's pretty hard to secure a border crossing in a country, let alone an entire planet.

Planets are noted for, among other things, being rather large.

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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by ChuckMcM on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @05:21PM (#12904488)
On the plus side, planetary distances are so large you know for a long time that someone is coming to your planet. So you have time to prepare a reception.
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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by mc32 on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @04:01PM (#12903900)
Here they would not be defending other terrestrial intruders but rather space invaders from earth, so they'd be reasonably sure where to look out for coming troublemakers. On the other hand, they could be in a precarious position if their habitat isn't terraformed (not needing intensive energy to keep things habitable, thus a weak point in sustainability).
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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by NickBusey on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:39PM (#12902243)
So, while no one can actually claim the land, if they land a bunch of habitat shaped 'space objects' on the surface, it is still under the jurisdiction of the country that launched them. Sounds like a loophole? "We don't claim this land, it's just covered with a city sized grouping of space objects that we do claim."
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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by SixSigma on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @01:38PM (#12902762)
Dispatcher: Hello 911

Caller: Someone just broke into my space pod.

Dispatcher: Ok, I'll send someone right over, should be with you in 6 months or so.

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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by dmytrish on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @02:58PM (#12903423)
Add several hours of delay between phrases.
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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by wongarsu on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @01:29PM (#12902679)
Or just unfold a big plastic sheet on mars, and claim sovereignty over that plastic sheet.
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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by science4sail on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @02:10PM (#12903034)
The treaty of Tordesillas regulated colonization, but it ended up falling by the wayside as countries not party to the treaty decided to just ignore it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tordesillas

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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by tomp on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @01:30PM (#12902690)
This treaty only binds the governments that signed it, i.e. only the governments of Earth. If people colonize Mars, couldn't they create a new (local) government that would then be able to claim sovereignty of the planet?
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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by qbrass on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @02:30PM (#12903219)
It's no different than making your yard a sovereignty. Nobody else on Earth has to recognize it, and it's up to you to defend it from anyone willing to take it for themselves.
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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by bbctol on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:40PM (#12902256)
That said, the definition of "space object" could make things tricky. Sure, China doesn't own this chunk of Mars, but they own the Mars base, and freely mine from the areas around the base, and decide who can open the door that they own...
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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by curried_haskell on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @01:44PM (#12902807)
This treaty will be shred to pieces the moment anyone with power gets a serious economic and colonization interest in space. It's utterly worthless.
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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by M_Grey on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:19PM (#12902043)
The colonization of Earth was accomplished with brute force, not visas.
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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by mc32 on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:30PM (#12902164)
Imagine deep sea exploration. Someone finds something very valuable and worth extracting despite the cost. There are treaties for this, of course. But would it work the same for Mars? Or, would we revert to force, as you say, if the Mars colony declares independence and says, no more Earthlings or only Earthlings from Country X who pay us handsomely.
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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by M_Grey on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:43PM (#12902276)
I mean... if a Mars colony really pisses people off, I imagine you'd hear the phrase, "Nuke them from orbit" bandied about a lot.
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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by tomp on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @01:32PM (#12902703)
This would probably go both ways. In fact, as Earth has so many satellites (GPS, communication, etc), you could simply "nuke" the orbit.
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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by M_Grey on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @04:13PM (#12903983)
It could, but that assumes an incredibly advanced Mars which can produce interplanetary weapons and launch without detection. Earth would also have the benefit of being able to withstand the event without total destruction, while presumably life on Mars would be in a relatively small area. You could wipe out a city on Earth, but you you could wipe out life on Mars.

Eventually though? Hell yes. Same with asteroid belt colonies and mining, especially when you consider the tech to exploit asteroids and the tech to steer on at Earth would look pretty similar. Presumably the limiting factor on such aggression would be the long-term dependency on Earth for supplies that couldn't be fabricated offworld, foodstuffs, and so on. At first, for at least a couple of generations, you'd also have the strong connection to the homeworld, I assume.

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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by babuskov on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:41PM (#12902263)
> Mars colony declares independence

It worked out fine for the USA.

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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by vkou on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:44PM (#12902293)
A Mars base declaring independence would be like the Amundsen–Scott South Pole Station declaring independence.
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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by shuntress on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:58PM (#12902425)
If the Amundsen-Scott South Pole Station ever achieved a self-sustaining system, maybe they would have declared independence.

edit: Meaning, it's more like saying 'The Columbus Expeditions declared independence'. Only once the colonies were, mostly, self-sufficient could they look seriously at independence.

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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by dpc59 on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:38PM (#12902235)
When it comes to politics might is right.
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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by sly010 on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:46PM (#12902315)
> And what if the new Martians just declare independence?

We just cut their supplies for 3 months ;)

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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by wyager on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @01:04PM (#12902483)
Presumably they wouldn't do it without becoming self-sustaining first, just like the American colonies.
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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by JoeDaDude on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @01:32PM (#12902710)
There is a historical precedent for a similar situation in North America, which was settled by the French and Indian War.
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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by AJ007 on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @02:26PM (#12903173)
Given the success rate of holding on to local colonies nearby on earth, my guess is it won't last and Mars would become independent at some point.
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Re:How settling Mars could create a new human species by novalis78 on Tuesday November 08, 2016 @12:35PM (#12902211)
Of course... that's one of the arguments for colonizing Mars sooner than later.
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