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Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by jimbokun on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:38PM (#12784551)
"Apple often doesn't invent the whole thing, but definitely puts a usable version on the market."

A common criticism of Apple is they just take technology that is most of the way there, then just make it usable. Of course, making it usable is often the hardest part and adds the most value for the consumer.

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by m12k on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:34AM (#12786715)
> Of course, making it usable is often the hardest part and adds the most value for the consumer.

As someone that considers UX and a user-centric approach to technology as their "edge" compared to most technologists, this is what keeps surprising me - because honestly it doesn't seem to me like it actually is or should be the "hardest" part at all. Compared to something like, say, solving differential equations, then I'd say that it seems fairly obvious, trivial even, to practice basic empathy and ask simple questions like "What could an average person get out of this technology?" and "How many of the technical details could we handle automatically so people don't have to bother with them yet still get most of the benefits?". At most I'd say it's the last 10-20% of the work on top of all the hard work on the tech (not because it's a small amount of work, but because the tech that comes before is so hard and time-consuming). But the company that gets the final part right gets most of the rewards (Pareto FTW!). Yet for some reason this tends to be different companies, doing the ground work and successfully commercializing the tech - why is that? Is it that hard to foster both a deeply tech-oriented and user-oriented culture in the same company? Is it too costly to invest in building expertise in both areas, so companies tend to choose one or the other? Is it because B2C is much higher risk than B2B, so it attracts a different kind of entrepreneurs?

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by amirmc on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @07:13AM (#12786879)
When you're deep into the tech it's difficult to see beyond. You get used the rough edges and even grow to like and appreciate them.

It can take a fresh pair of eyes to look at things and see a different way forward, and then be bold enough to try. This usually involves stripping away features to make things more simple. That's not always a popular choice in engineering circles.

In technology, it's especially tricky to think about the 'average user' when you're surrounded by other technologists.

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by acomar on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @10:32AM (#12788299)
Honestly man, I can handle math without issues. Differential equations are no big deal. But if you ask me to design a workflow, I'm going to give you the blankest stare ever because I don't even have a clue where to start. I can probably kludge something together based on how I could see someone else using the product, but in all likelihood, I'm just training myself to do it the way that's most natural for whatever I'm building.

Empathy is one piece of design. But if you can't visualize different modes of operation, you can't choose the most empathetic one. I suspect the real issue is that people with both deep technology and ux skills are rare. They require you to keep two entirely different problem spaces in your head and explore them together.

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by jimbokun on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:16PM (#12789712)
"I suspect the real issue is that people with both deep technology and ux skills are rare."

Same is true for companies, with Apple one of a very few companies with deep expertise in both.

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by jimbokun on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:29PM (#12789819)
"...because honestly it doesn't seem to me like it actually is or should be the "hardest" part at all."

Think about the amount of "empathy" that went into the first iPhone. All of the work to design an efficient way to display information and navigate on such a small device. Pinch to zoom. Inertial scrolling. Virtual keyboard to maximize screen space when you aren't typing. Swiping to navigate. Both dreaming up solutions like this and then making them real is extremely hard work and requires a lot of skill, talent, and knowledge.

It's not clear to me that making a smaller hard drive or a faster CPU or a screen with more pixels, are necessarily harder problems to solve than the kind of user experience problems Apple tackles. (Or used to tackle, depending on your view of post-Jobs Apple.)

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by penguat on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:18AM (#12787671)
Often this means providing an abstraction which won't break for most users. sadly, such abstractions are often like a duck - paddling madly under the water.
Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by beefsack on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:45PM (#12784590)
Something needs to exist before you can improve it. Continuing along those lines, the initial innovation to bring unique products to market is at least as important as polishing it.
Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by nardi on Monday October 24, 2016 @10:18PM (#12784746)
In this case, what was the initial innovation that was at least as important as the iPod? Who made it?
Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by kbenson on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:00PM (#12784933)
The Diamond Rio comes to mind, as probably the first consumer one to get much attention (but "much attention" is relative, and it was still a niche market), but with only 32MB of storage, it was underwhelming (but also years earlier, in 1998).

The Remote Solutions Personal Jukebox looks to have been the first of the models to use a laptop drive instead of small and expensive flash, but at $799 for 4.8GB, it was very pricey (1999).

The Creative NOMAD Jukebox in late 2000 had 6GB for $429.

In late 2001, Apple introduces the iPod, which at 4GB for $399, is actually not quite as good in a dollar per GB metric.

I think it's clear that it's not really the idea that made the iPod take off, but the marketing, polish, and IMO most importantly, that they had a real software company work on it rather than a bunch of EE people. Not to denigrate electrical engineers, but often it's a different type of programming that goes into UI and UX, and having people that have worked on that for years can matter quite a bit.

1: http://www.pcworld.com/article/174725/evolution_of_the_mp3_p...

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by FabHK on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:15AM (#12785238)
> but the marketing, polish, and IMO most importantly, that they had a real software company

I think it is important to remember that when the iPod came out, iTunes already existed. Not the iTunes store, mind you, but iTunes as a solution to (legally) rip your existing CDs (and automatically get the tags/meta-information from OCDDB or so), and manage songs downloaded from Napster (less legally).

So, people had a good platform to listen to music on the desktop, nicely managed with lots of meta-information (tags, time last played, rankings, etc).

Now, with the iPod, you could JUST PLUG IT IN, and it would download the whole shebang within a couple of minutes (via Firewire), and offer it in a nice interface. THAT was a quantum leap in usability compared with all other devices on the market at the time.

I had a minidisk player, and you could add artist and song titles manually on the device (selecting a letter at a time with a left/right cursor), and my, what a pain it was.

Just having your whole (carefully curated) music library on the go in a a few minutes on the iPod was AWESOME.

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by jarcoal on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:51AM (#12785379)
It's often forgotten that the early versions of iTunes synced with several popular MP3 players of the era.

That said, it often took forever over USB, so the fast transfer speeds of FireWire was a big selling point.

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by FabHK on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:16AM (#12785490)
Were other MP3 players supported before the iPod?

Wikipedia's iTunes history [1] says iPod support came in October 2001 (i.e. when the iPod was released), and Rio One support in December 2001, and doesn't really mention other MP3 players.

At any rate, the faithfulness with which the iPod presented the iTunes music library was great.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_iTunes#iTunes_2

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by kalleboo on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:57AM (#12785644)
January 9, 2001: "Apple Introduces iTunes — World’s Best and Easiest To Use Jukebox Software"

"download songs to popular MP3 players from Rio and Creative Labs with plug-and-play simplicity with no extra software or complicated driver installations required."

https://www.apple.com/pr/library/2001/01/09Apple-Introduces-...

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by FabHK on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:20AM (#12786136)
Thanks!
Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by duskwuff on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:10AM (#12785692)
Yes. Support for those other players was already present in SoundJam, and was carried over to early versions of iTunes essentially unchanged.
Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by pjc50 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @05:20AM (#12786449)
iTunes as a solution to (legally) rip your existing CDs

Technically, this wasn't any more legal than recording a CD to a cassette tape. It's still an infringing copy. It's just that nobody was ever sued for it, as far as I'm aware, and it's since been legalized in some places.

There were a few CDs with anti-rip technology (including the famous Sony rootkit CDs), but the industry largely gave up on that after losing the DRM war.

If workable DRM had been deployed fast enough, neither Napster nor the iPod would have existed. That's part of why the fight against DRM is important.

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by cacozen on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @07:42AM (#12787041)
Actually it was legal - there was a piece of legislation on the time that called "fair use" make local copies for you own usage. So if you owned a CD, it was fair use to copy to your own iPod.
Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by FabHK on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @11:54AM (#12797502)
Depends on the jurisdiction, obviously.

But Apple was actually marketing iTunes with the slogan "Rip. Mix. Burn." and put out this awesome ad featuring De La Soul, Iggy Pop, Barry White, and others. Check it out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ECN4ZE9-Mo

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by ghaff on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:12PM (#12784988)
That's all about how I remember it.

I'd add though that, while the initial iPod received a generally positive reception, there was the usual Apple critique that it was on the pricey side. And there really wasn't a general market perception right away that everything was different now. For one thing, iTunes originally ran only on Macs--and Apple wasn't saying publicly that would ever change--so iPods were mostly usable with laptops/desktops that were pretty niche at the time.

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by nowarninglabel on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:50PM (#12785151)
Exactly. I bought a Diamond Rio when it first came out, but it was early. It was difficult to explain to non-techies.

Apple figured out how to tap into the early adopters and make them influencers to bring in the early majority. Part of this was making it easier for people to be able to get music on to the thing. iTunes had just come out shortly before the iPod and started hitting its stride in tandem with the device.

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by wutbrodo on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @11:53AM (#12788960)
I'm curious, Why was it difficult to explain? Given the popularity of CD players, it seems like an mp3 player would be pretty easy to explain.
Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by qubex on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:10AM (#12785221)
At one point I had a solid-state Sony NW-MS7 Memory Stick Walkman (that wasn't quite an MP3 player because it was limited to only playing ATRAC files). For 1999, it was a usable and forward-looking piece of tech. Pity they crippled it with aforementioned ATRAC-only encoding (requiring file format conversion and re-encoding) and expensive Memory Stick proprietary media.
Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by majewsky on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:58PM (#12789546)
Ah yes, Sony and expensive proprietary media. I remember paying a small fortune (for a teenager) for an 8 MB Memory Stick for use with the PlayStation 2.
Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by madshiva on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:09AM (#12786090)
I had a Diamond Rio, and it's was way better than any Apple product. One week with a single AAA battery for 4h by days at least.
Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by briandear on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:57AM (#12786330)
Way better if your music collection consisted of 12 songs.

iPod made a thousand songs in your pocket a reality.

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by madshiva on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @07:03AM (#12786829)
Even if it's not a lot of mp3, I was able to change the mp3 without buying something and this at that time was a revolution. Even if it was not perfect, they made the revolution Apple did nothing.
Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by efdee on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @05:29AM (#12786489)
Technically speaking, Creative Labs did that. You just needed a slightly larger pocket :-)
Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by dewitt on Monday October 24, 2016 @10:39PM (#12784849)
MP3 encoding (Fraunhofer Institute) and the Arcos Jukebox (Arcos). Both paved the technical way for the huge usability and ergonomic improvements offered by the iPod.

Edit: And HDD density / price per MB reaching a point where storing several dozen MP3s was noticeably more convenient than swapping CDs.

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by nardi on Monday October 24, 2016 @10:48PM (#12784882)
MP3, definitely; that's a great pick. But do you really think using a hard drive instead of flash memory was a huge innovative leap? They didn't invent the hard drive. Both forms of storage existed at the time, and anyone could have picked one over the other.
Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by ghaff on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:13AM (#12785234)
The iPod hit the market pretty much together with 1.8" HDDs which proved to be a pretty nice sweet spot for a while. Flash costs became pretty unattractive in comparison for desirable capacities while larger drives led to clunky devices.

Not sure how one counts innovative but Apple chose a good horse to ride for storage that led to it being in an increasingly enviable position among MP3 players. (Which Apple parlayed into popular flash players and then the iPhone.)

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by jakobegger on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:57AM (#12785835)
Yes. In my opinion the 1.8" HDDs are the main technological feature that made the iPod possible.

To me, this was the most amazing thing about the iPod. 5GB inside this tiny package... it seemed impossible before I learned about those tiny hard drives.

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by makomk on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @05:29AM (#12786488)
As I understand it, of of Apple's big competitive advantages was that they contracted for essentially the entire output of 1.8 inch hard drives so no-one else could use them.
Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by jimbokun on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:19PM (#12789742)
Yes, but only after they had a large volume of iPod sales, I think. Apple has also used their scale with iPhone to buy components in such large volumes none of their competitors can get a lower price, which means Apple can actually be price competitive when they perceive it in their interest to do so.
Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by djeikyb on Monday October 24, 2016 @10:44PM (#12784865)
It wasn't the first I'm sure, but I had a Creative Nomad MuVo. It was basically a flash drive, but with an audio out. It was super compact and powered by a AAA battery. I was pretty happy to upgrade to a spacious iPod, but the little nomad served well. Creative may have had others that predate the iPod?
Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by shinymark on Monday October 24, 2016 @10:41PM (#12784854)
Great question! Perhaps tech related to mp3 compression and miniaturizing storage. I can't name any specific contributors, however.

While thinking about this it made me feel like that is an example of a powerful force of history - "to the victor goes the spoils." There was a lot of tech foundation innovated by competitors in related products that made the iPod possible but since the iPod was the breakout success of the era it's all some of us can remember.

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by joesb on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:20PM (#12785021)
Who created the universe?
Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by nercht12 on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:48PM (#12785143)
God.

Oh, wait, which universe?

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by nbb on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:52AM (#12786301)
Oh, sorry, I was trying to bake a pie.
Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by puranjay on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @08:33AM (#12787325)
I invent a wheel

Steve Jobs uses the wheel to create a cart, a wheelbarrow, a chariot and eventually, a bicycle

Does my wheel invention matter more or Steve Jobs' cart invention?

Because by itself, a wheel is useless

Re:Apple Introduces What It Calls an Easier to Use Portable ... by jstandard on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:34PM (#12789334)
Both are important. You can argue in circles about the relative importance.

The wheel is a platform innovation, the value of which lies mostly in its conceptual existence which enables useful applications of it. No wheel, no useful applications of the wheel.

The steam engine is another platform innovation. By itself, all a stream engine does is is sit there, eat resources, and belch white smoke. Combine it with some wheels and a large cart. Now you have a game-changing transportation method.