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Re:An External Replication on the Effects of Test-driven Dev... by Alex3917 on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @11:56PM (#12740957)
> I think the chasm exists between _untested_ code and code that has tests.

IMHO untested code isn't always a bad thing. Anything related to privacy, security, or data integrity should be heavily tested.

But beyond that, code should need to earn its tests. (At least in a web startup context.) After all, the core of agility is being able and willing to go in a different direction when something isn't working.

Re:An External Replication on the Effects of Test-driven Dev... by i__believe on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @12:10AM (#12741011)
I think there are a lot of nuance to this statement. After a few years on the start up scene, I believe that if you are using a "duck" typed language your core concepts should be tested without exception (for example rails and django models). The farther you get away from these core concepts, the less your tests need to be there and the more likely that code is to change.

In addition, if you are truly in the earliest stages of your startup (pre-revenue/traction) the tests are not needed -- but you have to be _very_ aware that you are making a tradeoff for sheer velocity and you will have to pay the price later on. I've seen too many startups fail to pay the price and it comes back to haunt them and reduces their overall velocity.

Re:An External Replication on the Effects of Test-driven Dev... by snovv_crash on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @02:16AM (#12741516)
If your code doesn't have tests then you can't refactor because you don't know if you broke something. Getting the right level of tests is important, they should check the interface and not the implementation, otherwise I agree, you can't refactor anything. But if you test your interfaces the same way that real code would use it then it actually makes you more agile, because it gives you the peace of mind to do major changes.
Re:An External Replication on the Effects of Test-driven Dev... by dasmoth on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @02:51AM (#12741637)
"Tests can make refactoring much easier" is a statement I could easily buy into.

"If your code doesn't have tests then you can't refactor" is pure dogma and trivial to falsify (go on, refactor some untested code now!). More likely to introduce bugs? Perhaps. But relying on that absolutist statement about refactoring will alienate me every time.

Re:An External Replication on the Effects of Test-driven Dev... by snovv_crash on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @04:09AM (#12741978)
Let me clarify: you can't refactor without a very awake QA team, because you have no idea what your changes may have broken.
Re:An External Replication on the Effects of Test-driven Dev... by kalms on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @05:22AM (#12742317)
And a passing test is a guarantee for a working feature across an entire platform. Every. Time.