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Re:Researchers reach human parity in conversational speech r... by radarsat1 on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @03:17PM (#12737759)
The term "human parity" refers to a comparison of the error rate, which is a single scalar summarizing performance in terms of mistakes made. It says nothing about the kind of mistakes, and I can easily imagine that machines qualitatively do not make at all the same kind of mistakes as humans. I'd be curious to know if the kind of mistakes machines make might strike human listeners as quite stupid, but maybe not.. many algorithms are getting better at taking into context and prior knowledge into account.
Re:Researchers reach human parity in conversational speech r... by saidajigumi on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @05:44PM (#12739011)
In my mind, this is analogous to the reasons why evaluation of lossy audio compression codecs requires human listening tests. Simply running some simplistic signal analysis like SNR (Signal-to-Noise Ratio) completely fails to capture the as-perceived quality of a compression implementation.

To explore that analogy: In the case of lossy audio compression, the compressor deliberately introduces quantization noise into the signal. It does so by running a "psychoacoustic model", which attempts to capture a broad quality of human hearing called auditory masking. There's a number of different kinds of masking[1]: a strong tonal sound creates an "umbrella" across nearby frequencies that can mask quieter noise-like sounds. Similarly there's noise-vs-noise masking, as well as forwards- and backwards- temporal masking. (Yes, backwards. A sound can mask perception of a sound that occurred before it.)

In the audio compression case, we've built an algorithm that attempts to characterize exploitable phenomena of human hearing. These masking characteristics aren't perceived quite the same by human listeners as the model, nor even the same between individual human listeners. Thus the need for human listening tests. These, due to the experimental care and human subjects required, are expensive.

Back to speech transcription. Say the end goal is "how well does a human comprehend this transcribed speech"? (e.g. vs some standard, such as the original speech, vs. the original speech transcribed by a skilled specialist, etc.) The problem starts to look pretty similar. We can cite numerical, word-centric error rates, but that fails to capture how well meaning is preserved and transmitted. Imagine a perverse algorithm that did a perfect transcription, but then dropped or altered words for maximum meaning obfuscation. It might equal or even beat the cited error rates but be much harder to actually comprehend.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_masking

Re:Researchers reach human parity in conversational speech r... by ArkyBeagle on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @09:42PM (#12740320)
I've always evaluated audio codecs on differential signals - subtract A from A'. For telephony codecs, there are formal tests for MOS and/or PESQ .
Re:Researchers reach human parity in conversational speech r... by saidajigumi on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @01:33PM (#12745809)
Which, isn't substantially different than evaluating a codec on introduced SNR.

These classic signal processing analyses tell you nothing about the correct operation of a psychoacoustic model codec design (i.e. MP3, AAC, Vorbis, etc.) An analysis of A (original signal) vs. A' (signal passed through a compression-decompression cycle) is just extracting the quantization noise introduced by the codec. That provides no information about how effective the codec was in masking that noise with the original signal content.

To illustrate, imagine a perversely designed codec: it runs two models, the first "good model" is a normal psychoacoustic model. The second "bad model" is the one the compressor uses: it applies the total amount of quantization noise allowed by the good model, but applies it in ways that are maximally annoying to human listeners. This isn't just avoiding masking, it's things like using noise correlated to the original signal, which is generally more obtrusive than uncorrelated noise, etc.

A codec using just the "good model" and one using the "good + bad model" would have (by definition) exactly the same introduced noise, but the latter would sound FAR worse to a human listener.

Re:Researchers reach human parity in conversational speech r... by ArkyBeagle on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @05:44PM (#12747972)
I am not familiar with the term "introduced SNR"... Googling.

No joy.

I can't really follow your thinking above; sorry.

In audio, there is distortion, which is correlated with the signal. Noise is uncorrelated. Codec error would seem very much to me to be at least much more correlated than uncorrelated. MP3 artifacts sound at least more "phase-ey" than they sound anything like quantitization noise ( at least to me ). This may be because I have heard badly aligned tape machines make that sort of error happen. "Phase-ey" also triggers my (feeble) mind into thinking about allpass filters as the model for the error.

In terms of intelligibility, it's possible to improve intelligibility by adding noise, and by adding clipping - aviation comms does this at times. What destroys intelligibility is phenomes being destroyed by phase changes and bad amplitide errors ( where there are actually good amplitude errors ).

I've run an ABACUS voice quality analyzer several times, and I don't think it's purely a distortion analyzer - adding clipping at least can improve MOS/PESQ score surprisingly. Even more surprisingly, there's no mechanism available for calibrating gain staging on one.

Re:Researchers reach human parity in conversational speech r... by saidajigumi on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @08:49PM (#12749083)
Ah, that's a mistake, that should have read "introduced [quantization] noise", which reduces the SNR in A' vs A.

If I understand you correctly, your discussion around intelligibility primarily applies to signal processing of voice vs general audio. Codecs such as MP3, AAC, etc. don't have the luxury of making assumptions about the signal content, and so aren't designed along those principles. E.g. speech codecs can generally run well at much lower bitrates than general audio codecs because they operate on a constrained domain of audio (i.e. speech).

Regarding distortion management, see Rate-distortion optimization[1] for lossy audio codecs: where the purpose is to manage distortion within the limits of the bit rate supported by a communication channel or storage medium.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantization_(signal_processin...

Re:Researchers reach human parity in conversational speech r... by ArkyBeagle on Thursday October 20, 2016 @07:21AM (#12751360)
Thanks for clarifying.
Re:Researchers reach human parity in conversational speech r... by bendykstra on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @03:42PM (#12737971)
That reminds me of the photocopier that used a very poorly chosen image compression algorithm. It would sometimes substitute similar looking characters to save space. A $7000 figure in a budget might become $9000 and a person looking over the document would have no indication that the '9' had been cut and pasted from somewhere else on the page.

Google Voice transcription often makes easily detectable mistakes that I can mentally correct using context. Smarter, context-aware mistakes might be worse, if they are also more difficult to detect.

Re:Researchers reach human parity in conversational speech r... by envy2 on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @03:51PM (#12738048)
For anyone else wondering about that copier: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08/06/xerox_copier_flaw_me...
Re:Researchers reach human parity in conversational speech r... by szupie on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @04:09PM (#12738186)
Section 9 in the paper[1] is all about comparing these mistakes between the system and humans. The most common mistakes for humans and the system are in tables 9—11.

We find that the artificial errors are substantially the same as human ones with one large exception confusions between backchannel words [acknowledgment words like “uh-huh”] and hesitations.

The difference they found, but suspect might be a result of the different transcription guidelines of the training corpus: we see that by far the most common error in the ASR system is the confusion of a hesitation in the reference for a backchannel in the hypothesis. People do not seem to have this problem.

[1]: https://arxiv.org/abs/1610.05256

Re:Researchers reach human parity in conversational speech r... by radarsat1 on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @04:33PM (#12738397)
Very cool that they investigated this! Thanks, I hadn't read the paper (obviously)
Re:Researchers reach human parity in conversational speech r... by tominous on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @12:07AM (#12740992)
The other day I asked Siri, "Remind me to pick up [daughter's name]" but it interpreted that as, "Remind me to pick up pussy." A more context-aware engine would realise we don't even have a cat. On the other hand it made me wonder to what extent Siri is trained on real-world data from other users.
Re:Researchers reach human parity in conversational speech r... by WildUtah on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @11:18AM (#12744543)
When SIRI reminds you to go grab that p-ssy, it's finally human enough to run for president.
Re:Researchers reach human parity in conversational speech r... by WildUtah on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @11:18AM (#12744528)
The term "human parity" refers to a comparison of the error

The term 'human parity' refers to adding up all the bits in a human and taking the residue to a convenient modulus to detect human error.

Re:Researchers reach human parity in conversational speech r... by radarsat1 on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @01:07PM (#12745577)
Sounds messy ;)