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Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by toomuchtodo on Monday October 17, 2016 @11:33AM (#12725928)
As Archer would say:

"Do you want terrorist groups? Because this is how you get terrorist groups."

Or, another way, one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. What option are citizens left with when state collusion to deny people their basic rights occurs in broad daylight?

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by throwaway98237 on Monday October 17, 2016 @11:46AM (#12726071)
Which is exactly why I deplore the term "terrorist". The U.S. throws the term terrorist around with reckless abandon while proudly parading its strategy of "Shock and Awe"[1] and weapons like the "Daisy Cutter"[2] around on CNN. How are those two examples anything other than naked attempts to instill terror in it's enemies???

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_and_awe

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLU-82

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by crdoconnor on Monday October 17, 2016 @12:14PM (#12726399)
Edward Peck says it best:

In 1985, when I was the Deputy Director of the Reagan White House Task Force on Terrorism, [my working group was asked] to come up with a definition of terrorism that could be used throughout the government. We produced about six, and each and every case, they were rejected, because careful reading would indicate that our own country had been involved in some of those activities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_terrorism

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by FireBeyond on Monday October 17, 2016 @01:51PM (#12727354)
Similar:

If we applied the laws we used to prosecute the Nazis at Nuremberg, every single post WWII US President/government would be considered to have committed war crimes.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by Kadin on Monday October 17, 2016 @03:52PM (#12728950)
I find it interesting that the Nuremberg Trials are continually held up, often by people who ought to know better, as a shining example of "International Law" and not a fairly straightforward example of the victors of a war taking the opportunity to polish off a few key enemies they missed. Which is a time-honored and not especially surprising practice, but hardly laudable, particularly when it involved some ex post facto invention of capital offenses.

Had it occurred in the context of anything but World War II, and was it aimed at anyone other than the Nazis, I think the consensus on it would be much more... nuanced. But because there is a very significant interest (across the US, Germany, Russia, Japan, etc.) in maintaining the Nazis as a singular sort of villain, so abjectly evil as to defy all comparison past or present, special rules apply.

(Plus, I suppose, there's some grading-on-a-curve that happens when the inevitable comparison is made between the Allied handling of the postwar environment and that of the Soviets; the Nuremberg Trials may have had certain jurisprudential imperfections, one could easily argue, but at least they didn't require heavy equipment just to dig the mass graves. Though that seems like damning with faint praise.)

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by EdHominem on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @02:13PM (#12746223)
If anything, the Nuremburg trials were overly light.

Both the USA and Germany had the death penalty at the end of WW2.

If you actually applied the law as you would in peacetime (as is reasonable because the gas chambers had no military necessity in the way a PoW camp would) then anyone involved in the process, including bringing supplies to the camp, would have been guilty until proven innocent. Evidence of participation is evidence of guilt, and by civilian standards of the time 90% of Germans in uniform and probably 20% of civilians should have been hung.

The Nuremburg trials were like Rwanda's Peace and Reconciliation process. Something that was knowingly far from completist, but just enough to stop the bloodshed and retribution.

> but at least they didn't require heavy equipment just to dig the mass graves

If you support the right of the state to kill (in War, etc) then what's the problem? Pretty much every Nazi was a criminal and had committed and supported war crimes. Pretty much everyone else was a collaborator.

(fwiw, that's the risk of going to war as a democracy. When you have choice, you have culpability.)

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by FireBeyond on Monday October 17, 2016 @05:11PM (#12729818)
Certainly, there's a number of issues with the Nuremberg Trials. They certainly were guided by many motives, not all of which were pure.

But my point is this: the same allies that came up with these reasons for prosecution, created such offenses, have been (not the only) ones to then go on and breach them, steadily, ever since.

i.e. my intent is not necessarily to hold up Nuremberg as a victory for humanity (though certainly _some_ of the things that came about from it are good), but to also implicate many of the allies and governments to follow as very much "do as I say, not as I do".

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by throwaway98237 on Monday October 17, 2016 @12:18PM (#12726445)
Wow, I never knew that! That is a gem of a piece of history.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by berntb on Monday October 17, 2016 @11:53AM (#12726160)
Because the laws of war is different when you have civilians as your main targets?

Here is my standard reference about the subject. Note that it is critical of the US -- and that ROE is still followed quite closely. Compare that to [terrorists and non democracies].

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v25/n04/michael-byers/the-laws-of-war-u...

(Are you really surprised by the content of this answer..?)

----

Edit: My answer to throwaway98237's deleted follow up comment:

>> a small band of tribes from Afghanistan

>> Also, the "laws of war" have evolved over time.

You went from: Setting an equal sign between terrorists and real armies (which use legal weapons psychological warfare against enemy soldiers, not against civilians).

To: Excusing terrorists because (a) some of them also do guerrilla warfare and (b) because the laws of war were a bit different 50+ years ago?

That is just not coherent.

Bye.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by throwaway98237 on Monday October 17, 2016 @12:19PM (#12726466)
I deleted my comment because I didn't see a reply from you and wasn't certain my comment was correctly speaking to your points because I just don't get your comment. Since I wasn't certain my response was speaking to the points, I removed it so as not to muddy the conversation.

Don't appreciate your aggressive tone.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by berntb on Monday October 17, 2016 @12:22PM (#12726500)
Like this, then:

You started by arguing that following the laws of war is terrorism. That subject of law have been really discussed, there are lots of academic papers. I'd be happy to see references?

And your follow up was just not possible to parse. Please read Byer's article, it taught me a lot on the subject.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by irrational on Monday October 17, 2016 @11:54AM (#12726176)
Is internet access really a basic right? I would argue no, but then again I grew up in a world without internet access for the most part so I consider it a nice-to-have rather than a necessity.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by endisukaj on Monday October 17, 2016 @12:09PM (#12726350)
I would argue that it is on par with a human being's right to be informed (read the news, buy books, etc.) Whether you call those basic human rights it's all up to you. The UN seems to think that it is a basic human right though.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by irrational on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @01:01AM (#12732235)
I don't know where you live, but where I live they still print physical books and newspapers. Maybe someday it will only be possible to be informed if you have Internet access, but that day isn't today.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by FireBeyond on Monday October 17, 2016 @01:52PM (#12727373)
The practicality of access to such rights changes when you make the choice to become a "refugee"/"fugitive", however.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by throwawayIndian on Monday October 17, 2016 @12:02PM (#12726275)
Incidentally, this is exactly what hollywood and other big publishers want. Supporting surveillance is a really cool way for them to take control of the web, undermine it even more and then reap profits without worrying about all those bills like SOPA or PIPA that never seem to pass. Hell, they don't even have to face a backlash anymore!

IMO, pushing bills for changes in laws or copyrighting is probably their second best bet. Their best bet is to push people away from the web -- like they succeeded with physical books by dumbing down ebooks as much as they could.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by toomuchtodo on Monday October 17, 2016 @11:58AM (#12726225)
The UN considers it so, but I was referring to Assange not being able to leave the Ecuadorian embassy for over 4 years.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by FireBeyond on Monday October 17, 2016 @01:54PM (#12727386)
That's a twisting of language. He's perfectly able to. He _chooses_ not to.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by toomuchtodo on Monday October 17, 2016 @02:46PM (#12727962)
You've just justified first world countries creating an artificial prison for political reasons. I am not surprised, as so many Americans justify and support Guantanamo Bay (and the holding of prisoners without charges or trial indefinitely).

America has become the Black Mirror reflection of itself and its foundational ideals, and is a terrible world role model.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by FireBeyond on Monday October 17, 2016 @02:51PM (#12728028)
Funnily, I am not American, though I do live in the US. British, and Australian by birth and heritage.

And I have never once claimed that the US is a role model for the world. In fact, a quick glance at my comment history would show that in many areas, I believe quite the opposite.

The artificial prison was of his own making, not that of any country. He chose to seek asylum, blaming a lurking boogeyman ready to extradite and or execute him, and continued to use this, rebuffing multiple attempts to resolve the issue (and arguably in many ways no other person would be allowed to do, dictating how, when or indeed if he would be allowed to be interviewed).

Certainly, many governments act in appalling ways. But Assange put himself in a predicament where he is now in legal hot water for his _actual_ avoidance of due process for _alleged_ activities.

Not like Guatanamo.

And not like your ad hominem attacks upon me to suit your cause.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by ddingus on Monday October 17, 2016 @01:29PM (#12727130)
As did I. I would argue the advance of tech, code as law (effect of code for most of us), and that imbalance warrant elevating the importance of Internet access.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by digi_owl on Monday October 17, 2016 @12:02PM (#12726274)
Would not denial of communication be a form of imprisonment?