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Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by Mithaldu on Monday October 10, 2016 @08:05PM (#12680869)
The unreasonable parts are:

- Apple assumed, and let these assumptions stay untested, and particularly failed to reach out to the different contact details on all involved accounts.

- Apple admits they terminated his account in error, yet blackmail him in refusing to reinstate unless he makes a blog post. (Actual contents of the post irrelevant to the point at hand.)

Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by eridius on Monday October 10, 2016 @08:08PM (#12680893)
Where did they say they terminated his account in error? On the recorded call they made it very clear that the accounts were linked and that Apple believes that to be accurate. The fact that they're willing to provide Kapeli with a way to get his account unlinked and reinstated does not mean they were incorrect in the first place.
Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by Mithaldu on Monday October 10, 2016 @08:11PM (#12680910)
Apple representative states there was no wrongdoing on Kapeli's side. Absent any wrongdoing on his side the termination is in error. Additionally they made the error of not contacting the holders of all accounts involved.
Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by IBM on Monday October 10, 2016 @08:24PM (#12680979)
The Apple representative told him he doesn't need to admit to any wrongdoing which is different from saying they believe there was no wrongdoing on Kapeli's part.
Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by Mithaldu on Monday October 10, 2016 @08:27PM (#12680998)
It does not matter what they think or believe. They admit to certain facts being reality and that's all that matters.
Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by IBM on Monday October 10, 2016 @08:38PM (#12681063)
It matters what they think or believe because you said

>Apple representative states there was no wrongdoing on Kapeli's side.

which is a misrepresentation of what the Apple rep said on the call.

Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by Mithaldu on Monday October 10, 2016 @09:05PM (#12681190)
Alright, i worded that badly. They admit to there being no wrongdoing on Kapeli's side by giving the option to reopen his account at all.

If they thought there were any wrongdoing they wouldn't even be talking to him, much less make him that offer.

Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by interpol_p on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @12:07AM (#12681814)
Why are you equating Apple's willingness reinstate his account with an admission that there was no wrongdoing?

The wrongdoing here is that he opened multiple accounts that could legally be linked to him and allowed one of them to be used to defraud the App Store. Apple could see that as wrongdoing while being sympathetic to his story that he forgot about it / lost control of it and so allow him to reinstate his account.

Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by Mithaldu on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @12:11AM (#12681827)
> he opened multiple accounts

You got your facts wrong. He did not do that.

Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by interpol_p on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @12:23AM (#12681862)
At the very least he allowed his credit card to be used in the enrolling of multiple accounts. We don't actually know whether he went through the sign up procedure for both accounts — he very well may have, you don't know either.

But in either case, Apple may have viewed this as the wrongdoing.

So the same question applies to you: why are you equating Apple's willingness to reinstate his account with an admission that there was no wrongdoing?

Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by Mithaldu on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @12:39AM (#12681906)
> Apple may have viewed this as the wrongdoing.

It is expressly permitted by their guide lines to use another person's credit card to start one's own account as long as one provides govt id: https://developer.apple.com/support/purchase-activation/ Please get your facts straight before trying to get into an argument.

As to your question: If there was any wrongdoing, which Apple at first staunchly insisted there was, Apple would not even bother to talk to him, much less offer any redress.

Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by interpol_p on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @01:06AM (#12681999)
I'm not arguing that the guidelines don't permit one to use another person's credit card.

I'm suggesting that if the account goes on to commit fraud then Apple may view that as wrongdoing. That is, the developer loaning out their credit card should be more responsible. Can you not see that this is a possibility?

And if this is a possibility then you might also see how Apple could allow the developer to reinstate their account because they are sympathetic to the reasons behind it happening. It doesn't have to mean that no wrongdoing took place.

It simply means: "We understand there was no intent to commit fraud, but it still happened, so we'll let you have your account back as long as you clear up how and why this happened on your blog."

Edit: Why would Apple not talk to him if there was any wrongdoing? I have been in a position where Apple has talked to me after assuming I was involved in wrongdoing. I was able to clear it up because they talked to me about it.

Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by Mithaldu on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @01:12AM (#12682009)
> That is, the developer loaning out their credit card should be more responsible. Can you not see that this is a possibility?

No, that is absolutely dificulous to me, and if it were the case, then the guidelines must state that, which they don't.

> Why would Apple not talk to him

Because they already told him they would not when they thought there was nothing in question.

Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by interpol_p on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @01:53AM (#12682141)
> the guidelines must state that, which they don't.

Why must they state that? It's a fairly obscure edge case that they probably didn't predict. There aren't going to be guidelines for every conceivable possibility of how a cluster of Apple developer accounts can be (mis)used.

> Because they already told him they would not when they thought there was nothing in question.

Your claim is that if Apple even talks to the developer, then there must be no wrongdoing. I disagree with that in this case and from personal experience. Apple's developer relations people are generally able to understand and sympathise with extraordinary circumstances. Such as they did in this case.

Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by eridius on Monday October 10, 2016 @08:15PM (#12680935)
Kapeli did not commit fraud. But that does not mean Apple was incorrect in linking the two accounts. In fact, 20 seconds into the call, the Apple rep says

> We don't believe that there was a mistake here, right. We don't think that we made a mistake.

So no, Apple is very explicitly saying they were not in error.

Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by pier25 on Monday October 10, 2016 @11:18PM (#12681655)
I agree. But then why force him to write a PR blog post in favor of Apple?

That's what's really wrong here.

Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by moduspwnens14 on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @09:20AM (#12684088)
It was to give him an "out" to resolve the issue in a way that's positive to both of them. He didn't have to write a PR blog post. He just had to state the facts:

His account was linked to one involved in fraudulent activity.

He's working with Apple to get his account unlinked from the fraudulent one.

That's it! He doesn't have to admit wrongdoing and Apple (despite being very confident they didn't make a mistake) gives him the benefit of the doubt and unlinks the account. Instead, he decided to dig his own App Store grave.

Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by eridius on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @02:44PM (#12687352)
Because he wrote the blog post that started this whole thing and accused Apple of doing the wrong thing. Apple just wanted him to essentially post a correction.
Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by Mithaldu on Monday October 10, 2016 @08:18PM (#12680948)
They're saying they think they did not make an error. That's entirely separate from what happened in reality. Besides, even if they say they think it, that might just as well be rethoric.
Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by eridius on Monday October 10, 2016 @08:27PM (#12680992)
Rhetoric? They make it very clear in the call that they believe their view is an accurate representation of reality. Maybe you should actually listen to the call.
Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by Mithaldu on Monday October 10, 2016 @08:29PM (#12681008)
It's rethoric because their stated beliefs clash with the facts of reality they admit to in that call.
Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by eridius on Monday October 10, 2016 @08:32PM (#12681029)
That doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that Apple admits to certain beliefs, and to certain facts that contradict those beliefs, in the same call? Because I'm pretty sure they don't. They explain that the accounts were linked and that they don't think they made a mistake in linking those accounts. And they offered the developer a way to unlink the accounts and restore his account without the developer having to admit to wrongdoing. But nobody seems to be disputing that the second account was engaged in fraud, and Apple gave some perfectly reasonable reasons for the two accounts to have been linked.
Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by Mithaldu on Monday October 10, 2016 @08:38PM (#12681058)
> Are you saying that Apple admits to certain beliefs, and to certain facts that contradict those beliefs, in the same call?

Yes, and it boils down to one thing:

Either the termination of his account was correct, and should be upheld; or it was wrong, and should be rescinded.

There are many times in life when things are in a range of grey between black and white, but this case is entirely black and white. Either they made an error with the termination or they didn't. If they made an error the account should be reinstated without question, delay or condition. If they did not make an error it needs to remain closed.

By the very fact that they are willing to reinstate it, they admit to the fact that the termination was in error, regardless of what they believe of say they believe.

Doublethink is real.

Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by eridius on Monday October 10, 2016 @09:03PM (#12681185)
This is nonsense. It was perfectly reasonable for Apple to terminate Bogdan's (the Kapeli dev) account. This doesn't mean Bogdan did something wrong. What it means is Bogdan's relative, who controls the second linked account, did something wrong. And Bogdan shares some responsibility because he set up that second account (Apple did not link the two accounts incorrectly).

And the fact that Apple's willing to work with Bogdan to unlink and reinstate his account also does not mean Apple did anything wrong. If you actually listen to the phone call the Apple rep makes it very clear that Apple believes they were correct, but that Apple is willing to offer Bogdan a way to fix things.

Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by Mithaldu on Monday October 10, 2016 @09:06PM (#12681196)
> It was perfectly reasonable

Well, we'll have to disagree. And i think Apple's actions, in giving the option of reinstatement, disagree as well, even though they claim to believe otherwise.

Edit: Oh, and even if something were to appear reasonable to do, but turned out in hindsight to be wrong, then it would still be an error.

Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by Twisell on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @03:03AM (#12682321)
The fact that they are willing to reinstate him show only on thing, a good customer policy.

And this is quite a similar to what you might experience if you ever go to a Genius Bar when you are somewhere in a range of grey as I once was.

Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by moduspwnens14 on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @09:22AM (#12684108)
Why is a random developer (out of millions who have not had this issue) immediately trustworthy, while Apple (who has no financial interest in banning him) is assumed to be untrustworthy?
Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by metrognome on Monday October 10, 2016 @08:23PM (#12680976)
The Apple representative also stated that the accounts were the same legal entity (due to the accounts being based on the same bank account). I don't think it's necessarily an error for them not to contact all involved accounts if they share something as private as a bank account.
Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by davrosthedalek on Monday October 10, 2016 @10:38PM (#12681509)
Them linking accounts by some heuristic does make them the same /legal/ entity. Shared bank accounts/accounts with multiple owners do exist. They bet that their heuristic is correct. In this case they might have gotten it wrong. That's their problem.

Do they make people aware that the accounts are linked?

Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by _pr on Monday October 10, 2016 @10:55PM (#12681571)
It's in the Apple Developer Program License Agreement. You're responsible for anything that happens with your stuff while it's enrolled under your name.
Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by smackfu on Monday October 10, 2016 @08:34PM (#12681039)
In a lot of countries, bank account is just the standard way of paying for everything.
Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by 0x0 on Monday October 10, 2016 @08:48PM (#12681107)
It could be the bank account used for receiving proceeds from app store sales they are talking about.
Re:Dash developer's response to Apple's response by vsl on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @06:05AM (#12682886)
It’s also possible he misspoke and was referring to the credit or debit card (and thus the account it was for) used to open the dev account.