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Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by ak4g on Friday October 07, 2016 @04:21PM (#12663643)
What's silly is saying oh, since I read some stuff online about how crappy the DNC security is, I should probably chalk it up to some unknown actor for some vauge hand-wavy reasons instead of taking the statements of the the Director of National Intelligence and the Department of Homeland Security at face value.

Why would they lie? What gives you reason to think they (not the DNC!) be that colossally stupid? Why would you do anything other than take allegations of yet another Kremlin attempt to interfere in fair elections as seriously as the people of Europe and Ukraine have learned, the hard way, that they must?

Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by alasdair_ on Friday October 07, 2016 @06:12PM (#12664307)
> taking the statements of the the Director of National Intelligence and the Department of Homeland Security at face value. >Why would they lie?

One reasonable reason for why they would lie is that their jobs are somewhat political and the person being targeted is likely going to be their boss soon. Claiming Russia is behind the hacks draws attention away from the hacks themselves, the shady campaign finance allegations they brought to light and the fact that Clinton was storing classified data in her home (I know the hacks were not of that particular server, but the two are still related.)

In a world where James Clapper is willing to egregiously lie, under oath, to congress, the default assumption that these people can be trusted to automatically tell the truth is suspect.

So far, the main evidence that I can find that links the hacks to the Russian government are two things:

1. Some of the documents had Russian metadata added to them. 2. The timing of the attacks seems to follow public holiday schedules for the Russian government.

These are both reasonable items of circumstantial evidence but it doesn't seem to be enough to accuse a foreign government directly.

Since this event has national political implications, and since the people making the statements have good reasons for being less than truthful, I am happy waiting for better evidence before making a decision one way or the other.

Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by meowface on Friday October 07, 2016 @07:11PM (#12664636)
>So far, the main evidence that I can find that links the hacks to the Russian government are two things...

As well as, from the private sector:

Various forms of infrastructure correlation analysis [1]

Correlation with past Fancy Bear breaches [2]

Very similar phishing tactic of link shorteners to steal email credentials (see for details) [3]

Similar RATs and C&C protocols [4]

Google independently correlating attacks with what they believe to be state-sponsored TTPs [5]

Correlation between all targets associated with a shared set of indicators, and the Russian government's geopolitical goals [6]

Additionally, Kaspersky, a Russian infosec firm founded by Eugene Kaspersky (Kaspersky is highly suspected to have had Russian intelligence ties, so of anyone he would want to challenge the US's story here) and who broke several stories about NSA's attacks and tools, names one of the groups as CozyDuke. [7] They do not explicitly say they're Russian, but they agree that they are one of the groups responsible for attacks against the US government. Crowdstrike calls this same group Cozy Bear (Kaspersky named them CozyDuke after Crowdstrike already established Cozy Bear) and other firms strongly believe them to be tied to the Russian government. They do not provide any evidence confirming or denying attribution either way. If they had even the slightest inclination that it wasn't Russia, I imagine they'd be pushing it hard.

Plus, probably a whole bunch of classified information gathered by US intelligence agencies if they're willing to make this claim publicly now.

And anecdotally, everyone else I know in the infosec industry agrees it's probably Russia. No company in the US or in countries with governments that oppose the US have provided differing stories. Admittedly, the fact that it's mostly US companies tying it to Russia should cause you to be skeptical, but you can read their actual analyses and fact-check them easily. No competing firms or competing countries have questioned their facts.

That's not necessarily proof Russia is trying to influence the election, sure, but they're definitely trying to piss in the US government's cheerios at the least. And I wouldn't doubt NSA has made plenty of Russian infiltrations of their own in the past; probably how Kaspersky got their hands on some of their tools in the first place.

[1] https://www.threatconnect.com/blog/tapping-into-democratic-n...

[2] https://www.threatconnect.com/blog/fancy-bear-it-itch-they-c...

[3] https://www.threatconnect.com/blog/guccifer-2-0-dnc-breach/

[4] https://www.crowdstrike.com/blog/bears-midst-intrusion-democ...

[5] http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/08/dnc-staffer-got-pop-...

[6] https://debugged.wilsoncenter.org/evaluating-the-dnc-hack-b0...

[7] https://securelist.com/blog/research/69731/the-cozyduke-apt/

Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by Natsu on Friday October 07, 2016 @09:38PM (#12665203)
> Plus, probably a whole bunch of classified information gathered by US intelligence agencies if they're willing to make this claim publicly now.

When they're willing to lie to our face under oath, trying to sell us secret evidence isn't going to buy much.

Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by meowface on Saturday October 08, 2016 @01:33PM (#12667778)
That's fair. Still, though, to formally make the accusation public knowing the severe diplomatic and geopolitical risks of lying about it means they're willing to withstand counter-evidence from Russia's own intelligence agencies and potentially huge political setbacks. Counter-evidence has yet to be provided.

All signs point to Russia; no signs (currently) point away from Russia; the public and private sector are in agreement; Obama is ballsy enough to call them out on it to their face; Russia has plenty of motive and more than enough talent to do it; it's probably Russia.

I'm not saying I trust the current administration or the intelligence community at all. I also wouldn't put it past Clapper to lie to other countries about various matters (just as he repeatedly lied and probably will continue to lie to the American public and Congress). Their job is to lie. I'm sure they lie about a lot of things.

But it would be dumb of them to make this particular accusation formal without pretty good proof, and all other independent analyses published support the accusation.

Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by Natsu on Saturday October 08, 2016 @02:36PM (#12668026)
What does Russia care? If anything, they're probably flattered by the idea that they have so much influence. They're normally quite blunt: dropping polonium in someone's tea or pointing sniper rifles at the president of Georgia or whatnot. The idea that they'd merely throw out some dirty laundry that won't really accomplish anything seems more like an inoculation than trying to take someone out.
Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by meowface on Saturday October 08, 2016 @03:30PM (#12668310)
Good question. Maybe they thought what they found/leaked would be more impactful to the election than it was. Maybe there's some reason only Putin knows.
Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by Natsu on Saturday October 08, 2016 @06:29PM (#12669010)
I have to question that given that one of the main revelations of the leak was how the DNC and WaPo are joined at the hip.
Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by ctack on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @08:48AM (#12683836)
It's not about Russia, it's about smearing the RNC.
Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by whybroke on Friday October 07, 2016 @06:45PM (#12664519)
So The Director of National Intelligence and the Department of Homeland Security are conspiring to provoke a serious intentional problem solely to distract from an already admitted to and apologized for personal server that is only important to Trump voters (ie won't change the election outcome)?

Doesn't that sound just a tad wild even for a conspiracy theory?

Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by ZoF on Friday October 07, 2016 @07:05PM (#12664618)
Yes, it is the "already admitted to and apologized for personal server" that this would distract from; certainly not the ongoing email leaks or content of those already released.

The server was a simple 'mistake' anyone could 'accidentally' make; I honestly think people don't understand how easy it is to accidentally configure a mailserver, happened to me just this morning.

>Doesn't that sound just a tad wild even for a conspiracy theory?

Sadly, it doesn't sound wild at all.

Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by lsh123 on Friday October 07, 2016 @10:26PM (#12665347)
> ... how easy it is to accidentally configure a mailserver ...

Should be "... how easy it is to accidentally configure a Sendmail server..."

Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by dxhdr on Friday October 07, 2016 @04:23PM (#12663656)
> taking the statements of the the Director of National Intelligence and the Department of Homeland Security at face value

Frankly, it's hard to do that in a post-Snowden, post-Comey world.

Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by grandalf on Friday October 07, 2016 @04:32PM (#12663724)
> it's hard to do that

I'd say it's completely impossible to do that :)

Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by marcosdumay on Friday October 07, 2016 @06:12PM (#12664308)
There are some people that, if they told me the sky was blue I'd look around for unexplainable chromatic aberrations.
Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by tptacek on Friday October 07, 2016 @05:51PM (#12664181)
For what it's worth, and apropos this thread, I responded to your comment about this issue from earlier this week (sorry it took me so long).

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12664172

Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by grandalf on Friday October 07, 2016 @07:03PM (#12664608)
Thanks for replying. I don't disagree with any of your conclusions but I'll reply in that thread with a brief comment in a moment.
Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by ak4g on Friday October 07, 2016 @04:25PM (#12663666)
Then use your critical thinking.

I'll repeat the question:

> Why would they lie? What gives you reason to think they (not the DNC!) be that colossally stupid?

Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by zigzigzag on Friday October 07, 2016 @04:57PM (#12663847)
Because it helps them justify a larger budget?

This is ridiculous. Why would they not lie? The US intelligence community appears to lie reflexively about everything. Why would anyone take their words at face value?

Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by zzzcpan on Friday October 07, 2016 @04:36PM (#12663741)
What would be the point in telling the truth? There is no truth, no lies, just carefully crafted words to pursue political agendas. I fail to recognize any difference between carefully selected truth and a lie. They all are used to achieve the exact same thing.
Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by wyager on Friday October 07, 2016 @04:23PM (#12663657)
>Why would they lie?

Are you joking? Do you not see the massive political motivation there?

And of course, the US government has a great track record with telling the truth about security issues.

Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by tomjakubowski on Friday October 07, 2016 @04:26PM (#12663672)
What's the political motivation for the DNI to lie? Clapper isn't really a politician and as far as I know he's not affiliated with any party.
Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by dragonwriter on Friday October 07, 2016 @04:35PM (#12663737)
> Clapper isn't really a politician

No one who gets any position that requires Senate confirmation is "not really a politician" (and, yes, that includes general/flag officers in the military) -- they may be purely bureaucratic rather than electoral politicians, but they are politicians nonetheless.

But, yeah, I don't see a lot of evidence that Clapper is a Democratic (or other) partisan.

Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by turar on Friday October 07, 2016 @06:38PM (#12664471)
Russia just told the US that if Americans attack Syrian troops, Russia will intervene on Syria's behalf. That should be the major story actually.
Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by ak4g on Friday October 07, 2016 @04:26PM (#12663677)
Of course I do, which is why I asked the 2nd question:

> What gives you reason to think they (not the DNC!) be that colossally stupid?

The political motivation is what would make lying here colossally stupid.

Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by Animats on Friday October 07, 2016 @07:04PM (#12664613)
If the announcement came from, say, Major General Mark W. Westergren, USAF, Deputy Chief NSA/CSS, it would be more credible. He's not a political appointee, and should know in detail what's going on in this area.
Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by dnautics on Friday October 07, 2016 @07:20PM (#12664671)
All O7- and above are not apolitical; all flag officers in all services must be nominated by the president and confirmed by the Senate at each promotion beyond O6. It's often a rubber stamping process, but it is there. Denial of promotion and individual intervention is relatively frequent.

Technically all officers also have this treatment but Senate oversight and intervention is much lower, and the batches are much bigger.

Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by dragonwriter on Friday October 07, 2016 @07:14PM (#12664647)
> If the announcement came from, say, Major General Mark W. Westergren, USAF, Deputy Chief NSA/CSS, it would be more credible. He's not a political appointee

I am aware of no commonly used definition of "political appointee" that does not include (among others) all officers of government that go through the appointment-by-the-President-and-confirmation-by-the-Senate process that applies to -- as well as to officials that get more media attention for this process -- all military officers (and with notably more personal attention in the process to 1-star and higher ranks -- generals and admirals.)

Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by meowface on Friday October 07, 2016 @07:13PM (#12664643)
Why would that make a difference? If the US government is so brazen to force a public official to lie about this, they would make him lie about it, too.

(There's almost no chance there is a conspiracy here. I think it is probably Russia.)

Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by travmatt on Friday October 07, 2016 @07:54PM (#12664813)
Also, a republican led incident response firm attributed the hacks to Russia.
Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by Natsu on Friday October 07, 2016 @09:36PM (#12665193)
> Why would they lie?

- To distract us from their own incompetence. - To avoid talking about the content of those leaks (from memory, the WaPo is an arm of the DNC that they hold illicit fundraisers with, the DNC funneled all of the money to Hillary from the outset so Bernie never had a shot, etc.) - To paint Trump as an agent of a foreign power (he's bad enough even after you filter out the nonsense).

They turned off logging on those servers to avoid transparency. If they want me to believe claims like this, I'll need to see the full server logs from the email server. Oh, wait, they destroyed those. How convenient.

My thoughts are that the elections will continue to get worse as long as we keep voting for lizards to keep the wrong lizard from winning. Anyone who tells you you're limited to the choices made for you on the ballot bears some personal responsibility for the mess.

Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by TheSpiceIsLife on Saturday October 08, 2016 @12:22AM (#12665662)
It's comical that anyone claims US presidential elections are fair. I'm not picking a political side here, both parties are duping the voters.
Re:U.S. government accuses Russia of hacking campaign to inf... by turar on Friday October 07, 2016 @06:35PM (#12664450)
Why wouldn't they lie?