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Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by denzil_correa on Friday October 07, 2016 @12:28PM (#12661916)
> Anyone who is serious about learning data science will read this book and will not shy away from learning math.

The problem is not math. The problem is the way math is explained. Most books do not go into the intuition and are very dry. People generally shy away due to the dryness of the material, not the content.

Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by yummyfajitas on Friday October 07, 2016 @12:43PM (#12662006)
One of the major points that this book is trying to convey is that your intuition is wrong. You need to burn it down, learn the formalism, and maybe develop new intuition based on that. Even then you need to recognize that intuition can be wrong.

An N-dimensional vector space is not like R^3. A monad is not like a burrito, and >>= is not like chipotle forgetting to put chicken in your burrito, opening it up, adding chicken and wrapping in a new tortilla.

Math is a new thing rather than the same old thing with new syntax. It needs to be understood on it's own terms. If you are serious you'll learn it.

Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by throw_away_777 on Friday October 07, 2016 @01:02PM (#12662158)
I agree with your sentiment that math is important, but it is also true that math is not taught well. Just briefly glancing at chapter 2 the first part, the author presents the law of large numbers out of the blue, then just goes on to present proofs of it. There is no clear discussion of why this law is important, when you can use it and so on. If you contrast how wikipedia explains it:

> In probability theory, the law of large numbers (LLN) is a theorem that describes the result of performing the same experiment a large number of times. According to the law, the average of the results obtained from a large number of trials should be close to the expected value, and will tend to become closer as more trials are performed.

This book: > If one generates random points in d-dimensional space using a Gaussian to generate coordinates, the distance between all pairs of points will be essentially the same when d is large. The reason is that the square of the distance between two points y and z ...

Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by denzil_correa on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:53PM (#12663046)
I always get a eerie feeling for people who excessively stress on formalism. It almost goes to the point where I feel they wouldn't want to share their knowledge or intuition.
Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by yummyfajitas on Friday October 07, 2016 @05:08PM (#12663914)
Clearly the guys who wrote the only comprehensive introduction to a topic don't want to share their knowledge.
Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by denzil_correa on Friday October 07, 2016 @07:28PM (#12664700)
The previous comment was not directed towards the authors of this book.
Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by BigJeffeRonaldo on Saturday October 08, 2016 @09:21AM (#12666864)
They are trying to help you get a correct intuition. If you have never approached things this way, there are almost certainly very large holes in your understanding. Not to say that everyone needs to be formal all the time, but you need to sometimes.
Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by denzil_correa on Sunday October 09, 2016 @05:24AM (#12670453)
> If you have never approached things this way, there are almost certainly very large holes in your understanding.

When anyone tells me that X is the ONLY way to do it, almost exclusively I have found them wrong - beyond data science. Formalism is a means of communication, not the end. You can always communicate ideas without formalism.

FYI, I am a Ph.D Computer Science and a practicing Data Scientist for many years now.

Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by denzil_correa on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:46PM (#12663001)
You are essentially saying - the way I think of math is how it should be learned. Sorry but if you're serious, you will find a way to explain your mathematical intuition.

The problem is detailed in this wonderful essay by Paul Lockdhart

https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament....

Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by yequalsx on Friday October 07, 2016 @05:20PM (#12663995)
We can explain mathematical intuition. We just can't explain it as quickly or in as interesting way as you seem to want.

Here's a simple concept: all polynomials with coefficients in a number system (field) have a solution (possibly in a larger field).

Do you know how hard it is to convey what exactly this means and what the consequences are? I like Lockhart's essay. It resonates with me. However, I don't see his ideas being useful in terms of learning advanced topics. At some point one has to get their hands dirty and slog through the material. Intuition will come with experience.

Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by denzil_correa on Friday October 07, 2016 @07:26PM (#12664690)
> Do you know how hard it is to convey what exactly this means and what the consequences are?

I never said it is easy.

> Intuition will come with experience.

And this experience that some people have already reached should be shared, not limited to a select coterie of people.

Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by yequalsx on Saturday October 08, 2016 @01:52AM (#12665846)
It is shared. It's just that everyone has to go through to mental work to truly understand. It takes me a semester to convince my students that 3x+5x=8x and that this is true because of the distributive property. And this is why ax+2x = (a+2)x. And the reason we can't simplify further is because our language does not have a word for (a+2) but it does have a word for (3+5). But I know that after a semester of teaching this most still don't actually understand the distributive property. It takes a lot of effort on the part of students for the concept to click.
Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by denzil_correa on Saturday October 08, 2016 @05:14AM (#12666245)
> It is shared. It's just that everyone has to go through to mental work to truly understand.

Except, I can hardly see that. At least, I see you trying - most people do not make an attempt at all.

FYI, I am a Computer Scientist.

Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by throw_away_777 on Friday October 07, 2016 @12:48PM (#12662049)
Most math textbooks focus too much on proofs, as does this book. Data science is a broad field, but for most use cases formal proofs are not really needed. I would prefer a text that focuses on examples and how/when to apply the theorems, rather than here is a theorem and here is a proof. Oh and here is another theorem and here is another proof. That isn't to say proofs are not important, but the focus of data science is usually on applied statistics.
Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by yummyfajitas on Friday October 07, 2016 @12:55PM (#12662118)
I would prefer a text that focuses on the java standard library and shows how/when to apply a java.util.List<T>. That's far better than a Data Structures and Algorithms book that teaches you how you'd implement a linked list or other complex data structure.

90% of the time I use the java standard lib. Sometimes I need something almost the same, but a bit different. The difference between a middling developer and a good one is what happens in that 10% of the time.

The same applies to proofs. What happens when you need something that's almost like the theorem, but not exactly? Can you tweak the proof to apply to your case, or alternately recognize that it can't be fixed and you need to do something different?

Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by throw_away_777 on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:15PM (#12662730)
I agree that knowing and understanding the fundamental math is important, but I think proof based texts are not a good way to learn math. A lot of people get turned off from math because of how it is taught. Personally I learn best by doing problems and seeing examples. Proofs are useful, but I want to know why the theorem is important before I learn how to prove it is true.
Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by mindcrime on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:11PM (#12662697)
I don't think anybody is saying that proofs don't matter, or that they aren't important. But it looks like you're choosing to focus on uncommon edge cases. I think a lot of people would question that line of thinking. It's almost like the old saw about how you don't need a degree in mechanical engineering in order to effectively use a car. But if you need something "almost like a car, but also kinda like a bulldozer" then you're out of luck. OK, how often does that scenario come up? Enough to care about? For most people, the answer is a resounding "no".

Likewise, one can certainly apply a lot of mathematical techniques in a lot of situations, without proving new theorems. So there are edge cases... not the end of the world. Deal with it when it comes up.

Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by mindcrime on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:50PM (#12663030)
Most math textbooks focus too much on proofs, as does this book.

My problem with (most) maths texts isn't the proofs in and of themselves, it's just that they make so many assumptions about what you already know, and don't always state those assumptions clearly. And then too many maths texts, to me, fail to include enough expository text to explain the math and provide more of an intuition around what's going on.

That said, I also agree with you that more examples in terms of applications would be nice. Learning really abstract stuff in isolation is OK, but it's always nice to have a few (or more than a few) examples of how to apply the technique to something concrete.

Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by sn9 on Friday October 07, 2016 @05:53PM (#12664199)
Most well-written textbooks list the assumed background knowledge in the preface/introduction.

Just skimming that part for the word "prerequisites" or "background" will usually find it.

Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by eli_gottlieb on Saturday October 08, 2016 @02:50PM (#12668082)
> Most well-written textbooks list the assumed background knowledge in the preface/introduction.

Most actually-existing books simply write that the student should be "mathematically mature", by which they mean that the student should know all of multivariable and vector calculus, most of differential equations, much of optimization, and some amount of analysis. And also be able to do proofs, and also have good intuition.

In short, most "applied" math textbooks aim themselves at Master's degree students or beginning PhD students in math itself, to teach material which can actually be taught to anyone with a bachelor's in science or engineering (except possibly computer scientists, whose continuous maths degrade because we never use them).

Ironically, the first math textbook I've ever picked up that didn't assume far too much background was my real analysis textbook, because analysis teachers assume that they are teaching the gateway course to "real math" and have to educate little babbies who only just got done with calculus.

Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by sn9 on Saturday October 08, 2016 @09:24PM (#12669464)
I don't see the problem?

If you want to learn something difficult that's above your level, and learning that something includes learning a prerequisite subject that's also above your level, you simply start at the node in the DAG that's at your level and work through the prerequisites if you're serious.

Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by yummyfajitas on Monday October 10, 2016 @07:49AM (#12676489)
I sometimes jump in at the place above my level and read both books simultaneously. You often need only a few things from the prerequisite class.

But yes, there is no substitute for learning all the things you need.

Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by mindcrime on Friday October 07, 2016 @07:48PM (#12664789)
Most well-written textbooks list the assumed background knowledge in the preface/introduction.

Exactly. And a surprisingly large number of books aren't well-written, exactly because they don't include that bit.

Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by sn9 on Saturday October 08, 2016 @09:21PM (#12669459)
Over 90% of any medium is garbage which is why you have to take the time to make sure you're spending the time on the best material.

For most well-studied topics, finding the books that are good enough is not that difficult.

Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by catnaroek on Friday October 07, 2016 @01:31PM (#12662380)
If you understand a mathematical theory, then you should be able to figure out on your own when that theory is applicable and how to apply it. So I can't help but read your comment as “I don't want to have to learn”.
Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by throw_away_777 on Friday October 07, 2016 @01:50PM (#12662533)
You are being condescending and over simplifying the issues, try to not rush to judgment. I have spent a lot of work and time learning how to apply machine learning, so your comment was offensive and wrong. Applying mathematical theory is not just a matter of understanding the theory - in the real world there are a whole lot of reasons why you won't be able to apply the theory, even if you understand it perfectly. You will always have to make assumptions and approximations. I like learning, but I prefer learning for a purpose. Proofs don't really give you a practical understanding of the theory.
Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by catnaroek on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:31PM (#12662863)
> You will always have to make assumptions and approximations.

The ability to determine when an approximation is good enough comes from a solid understanding of the underlying theory. For example, we understand that special relativity doesn't invalidate classical mechanics, because, in the limit, as speeds and energies become arbitrarily small, their predictions coincide. But, if all you have is a bunch of computational recipes, even the tiniest unexpected thing renders you unable to solve problems.

Anyway, I'm not saying that examples of applications are a bad thing. But proofs are indispensable. Even for “intuitive” people, proofs are necessary confirmation that their calculations will match their intuitions.

Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by throw_away_777 on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:47PM (#12663008)
You bring up an interesting example in special relativity. I am a physicist, and there isn't really a "proof" in the mathematical sense of special relativity. Googling it provides this quora answer: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-proof-for-Special-Relativi...

There is no proof of special relativity, we believe it because it makes experimentally verified predictions. Your example of limiting cases of special relativity is how I wish statistics texts were taught - it isn't based on the "proof" of special relativity. Of course I know when special relativity is applicable and when it isn't (when beta = v / c is close to one, special relativistic effects are important, and gamma = 1 / sqrt(1 - beta*beta) indicates how good the approximation is).

But I do agree that proofs are useful and needed, I think that complicated proofs could easily be placed in appendices and looked at after understanding why the theorem is relevant. Of course this is just my personal preference.

Re:Foundations of Data Science [pdf] by catnaroek on Friday October 07, 2016 @03:00PM (#12663104)
> There is no proof of special relativity, we believe it because it makes experimentally verified predictions.

Right, that's because special relativity is a scientific theory. A scientific theory has two components: a mathematical theory (in which you can perform a priori physically meaningless calculations) and a physical interpretation (which turns the results of such calculations into predictions).

However, statistics isn't a scientific theory. It's just math, and like all math, it's about itself and nothing else. It doesn't make sense to “experimentally confirm a mathematical theory”, because, without a physical interpretation, math doesn't make any predictions about the real world.

> I think that complicated proofs could easily be placed in appendices and looked at after understanding why the theorem is relevant.

Then you're looking for books on applications. That's fine. But a book whose subject matter is a mathematical theory (it even has “foundations” in the title!) can't relegate proofs to appendices.