News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in We... by JoshTriplett on Friday October 07, 2016 @10:40AM (#12660995)
> DRM will be there anyway. Be it Flash, be it something else.

Then let it be Flash, so it can die with Flash. Let's not perpetuate it, or make it any easier. Let a hundred competing "standards" bloom so media companies have more work to do, and might decide that DRM seems like too much trouble and decreases their target audience. Let browsers prune away support for DRM with their outdated plugin interfaces.

Don't give any one "standard" the blessing of any standards organization. And don't accept something inherently non-standard as a standard. Don't accept as a standard something completely unimplementable in a fully Open Source browser. Don't accept a standard interface to custom binary DRM implementations.

Re:Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in We... by derefr on Friday October 07, 2016 @02:16PM (#12662733)
There aren't going to be a hundred competing standards, because the production tool ecosystem has its own working groups who will settle on a small set of standards, with or without the input of the browser vendors. The browser vendors only have a say in DRM formats insofar as providing universal support for a format entices the production-tool ecosystem to provide export-compatibility for it. If the browser-vendors refuse to provide such a standard, they're really just refusing to sit at the table where the standard is decided.

In the end, there'll be a standard DRM multimedia format whether it's "endorsed" by Open Web people or not; if browsers don't build in support for it, then it'll just build support for itself, via the APIs that do exist: WebGL, WebRTC, ASM.js, etc. Consumers will get their media; they'll just be running an opaque blob of Javascript in the browser to get it, instead of the browser doing the job—cleanly—itself.

Re:Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in We... by nitrogen on Friday October 07, 2016 @03:21PM (#12663267)
That opaque blob of JS wod be great compared to an opaque blob of binary code that has access to the GPU, which in turn has access to DMA...
Re:Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in We... by dogma1138 on Saturday October 08, 2016 @12:21AM (#12665656)
I suggest you read on how modern display drivers are designed, you can't cross boundaries.
Re:Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in We... by nitrogen on Saturday October 08, 2016 @02:51AM (#12665964)
Designed. Many designs fail to achieve their goals. Has there been much research into 0-days in the GPU firmware itself? Or the closed blobs that get loaded into kernel space?
Re:Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in We... by dogma1138 on Saturday October 08, 2016 @04:48AM (#12666189)
Yes, quite a bit actually, and you also need to understand that you aren't hitting the GPU directly by any means you are going through several layers of API's each with it's own security controls, then hitting a restricted end point in a usermode driver.

This is not to say that there aren't vulnerabilities in the drivers, that said the only 3 PE/CE vulnerabilities in the NVIDIA driver in the past 4+ years were not exploitable through any vectors you are suggesting since they involved NVAPI, AMD doesn't discloses vulnerabilities openly IIRC.

To exploit a vulnerability in the manner you suggest you need to break through the sandboxing and security model of the browser, break the sandboxing and security model of the web API you are using e.g. WebGL break through the security model and sandboxing of the actual API e.g. DirectX on Windows, break through the sandboxing and security model of the user mode driver, and then exploit a vulnerability in a kernel mode driver that might have actual access to something you might care about.

And even then it's not that simple in WDDM for example even in pure kernel mode you'll have issues accessing memory out of the bounds of your application due to how GPU resource are managed, pinned and translated.

To put it simply every process accesses a "virtual GPU" through it's own endpoint, there is a zero-out process which is invoked on both the GPU and system memory when any buffer is allocated or accessed, and there is an out-of-bounds behaviour control running on the GPU independent of the driver, basically once you access (read or write) out of bound memory the GPU would terminate the loaded kernel which would crash your application and the driver would be cycled (restarted).

The out of bound memory is a real annoyance anyone who's worked with GPGPU especially CUDA is pretty familiar with, it's the #1 app killer (as far as code errors go) and for good reasons, even a privileged kernel running natively on the GPU is protected from abusing it's own rights.

Re:Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in We... by gcp on Friday October 07, 2016 @03:29PM (#12663332)
The CDM is sandboxed in Firefox and Chrome.
Re:Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in We... by nickpsecurity on Friday October 07, 2016 @03:54PM (#12663486)
What does that mean in regards to parent's comment? If it renders, it went through both a graphics driver and GPU. Therefore they're in attack surface for malicious data designed to take over privileged code and/or DMA engines.
Re:Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in We... by rockdoe on Friday October 07, 2016 @05:39PM (#12664111)
The CDM doesn't need to do any rendering, and interaction with the GPU can be limited to writing in a designated shared memory area.
Re:Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in We... by dogma1138 on Saturday October 08, 2016 @12:20AM (#12665654)
Because it's isolated and there is no DMA really.

There is a reason why the graphics driver is in user mode, and why the memory is virtualized.

The application doesn't have traditional DMA unless you load a privileged kernel which you can't do via a browser.

An application can't access the memory of another application via the display driver this is a solved issue.

Re:Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in We... by syshum on Friday October 07, 2016 @04:22PM (#12663650)
>>there'll be a standard DRM multimedia format whether it's "endorsed" by Open Web people or not

Open web people can not endorse DRM, once a open web persons endorses DRM they cease to be a Open Web Person.

Re:Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in We... by rockdoe on Friday October 07, 2016 @05:35PM (#12664091)
No true Scotsman, in other words.
Re:Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in We... by syshum on Friday October 07, 2016 @05:49PM (#12664170)
No, a No True Scotsman fallacy exclude the specific cases or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule.

Claiming to be a Open Web supported while also endorsing closed items like DRM, is an objective violation of the Philosophy of the open web

People over use and misappropriate the charge of No True Scots Man

Re:Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in We... by nitrogen on Friday October 07, 2016 @05:44PM (#12664133)
Not quite, it's more like a vegan recommending their favorite brand of bacon. They lose their vegan superpowers.
Re:Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in We... by nucleardog on Saturday October 08, 2016 @12:47AM (#12665723)
Except that's not what's going to happen. This problem is not going away. And if you create more "work", they'll just do what they need to to capture the majority of the market and leave a lot of users in the cold.

The people this hurts aren't going to be the media companies or the normal users. The people it will hurt will be us crazies that do stuff like run Unix on the desktop or try and run unlocked Chinese Android phones, because they just won't be supported because there's no financial case for it.

Re:Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in We... by JoshTriplett on Sunday October 09, 2016 @04:16PM (#12673207)
> Except that's not what's going to happen. This problem is not going away. And if you create more "work", they'll just do what they need to to capture the majority of the market and leave a lot of users in the cold.

And then that'll leave a market for someone else to come along and serve.

Re:Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in We... by nucleardog on Sunday October 09, 2016 @11:36PM (#12674873)
That would be great if copyright didn't exist.

If the company that owns the distribution rights to a piece of content doesn't want to support the last few percent of the market then they just won't and there's nothing anyone else can (legally) do about it unless they start further up the food chain, making their own content. And if there were enough money in those outliers for that to be profitable, then the existing content creators would probably be serving them.

DRM is going to happen one way or another, and in my mind ensuring that at the very least the DRM itself has a defined interface for everyone to work against results in a more "open" ecosystem than leaving it up to backroom deals between content creators and DRM vendors who create hacky hodge-podge software.

Re:Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in We... by inimino on Friday October 07, 2016 @10:03PM (#12665269)
It's not going to be Flash precisely because Flash is dying. It doesn't matter whether the W3C is involved or not, the companies that want this are going to make it happen. The idea that stopping a W3C standard is somehow going to stop the entire media industry getting its way on this is nothing but a fantasy.

Unfortunately, many people who could bring some moderation to the discussions about DRM are still stuck in fantasy land where none of this is happening.