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Re:Ask a Female Engineer: Interviewing and Company Culture by bhrt0 on Thursday October 06, 2016 @05:26PM (#12656255)
Do doctors also feel hurt when they are being asked questions on "how would you handle the patients with such and such symptoms" and expected to give a textbook answer?
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: Interviewing and Company Culture by arglebarnacle on Thursday October 06, 2016 @05:37PM (#12656330)
That analogy would make more sense if software engineering required as many time-sensitive split second decisions as doctoring does.

Doctors go through years of schooling involving a substantial amount of memorization as well as board exams, residencies and so on before they're allowed to do much doctoring at all. This is the case because it is crucial that they not forget in an exam that neck pain combined with a headache could be a sign of meningitis, etc.

If an engineer needs to know which sorting algorithm is best, taking some time to research and google it is not going to cause a problem. That's why questions like this are bad, even offensive--they make people feel as though they're bad engineers when actually they're being put through an ineffective interviewing process.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: Interviewing and Company Culture by bhrt0 on Thursday October 06, 2016 @05:45PM (#12656387)
> it is crucial that they not forget in an exam that neck pain combined with a headache could be a sign of meningitis, etc.

Why is it crucial if it's just a "5 second google search"? And not every doctor is dealing with serious life threatening illnesses, just like not all developers are working on bootstrapping their uber for cats with Angular 2 and pouchdb.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: Interviewing and Company Culture by bsder on Thursday October 06, 2016 @08:03PM (#12657157)
> Why is it crucial if it's just a "5 second google search"?

Because you can't google every single symptom. And sometimes the symptom is only mentioned very briefly in passing. And sometimes the patient is hiding the symptom. And sometimes the important piece of information isn't a "symptom".

So, you need to have these in your head so that you can connect the dots to "I thought it was X, but new data Y suggests it might be Z. I need to go push on abdomen, put stethoscope to stomach, right now while patient is sitting in my office." A good example of a non-symptom that would go into your diagnosis--patient just got divorced and started dating again ... hmmm, STD's are probably back in the probability pool again, might want to check for one given the other symptoms.

Where computers are useful, but, sadly, we don't have good implementation is spotting localized trends. If one person comes down with Karposi's Sarcoma, that's an anomaly. If 10 people come down with it, that's a problem. It would be good to have databases with data from multiple doctors so that we could let the computers spot those things.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: Interviewing and Company Culture by odbol_ on Thursday October 06, 2016 @08:43PM (#12657331)
I mean, my doctor usually just types my symptoms into Google anyway...
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: Interviewing and Company Culture by st3v3r on Thursday October 06, 2016 @07:43PM (#12657047)
It's crucial because people can die. That is not something you can say with someone's code being written this exact second. There is always time to research, test, experiment, and change.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: Interviewing and Company Culture by aries1980 on Friday October 07, 2016 @11:31PM (#12665534)
> It's crucial because people can die

Not every illness is lethal, for most of them you can just make it worse. Even less requires quick decision. Also, software evolves and scales much quicker than humans which makes our industry less standardised.

> That is not something you can say with someone's code being written this exact second. There is always time to research, test, experiment, and change.

In my world, there is a risk assessment which defines if we have time to research, test, etc. or just fix it on the go, because it is not a big deal if it occurs. In other cases we have a cold sweat and dead silence during deployment, don't we?

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: Interviewing and Company Culture by chris_7 on Thursday October 06, 2016 @05:33PM (#12656305)
The idea of a doctor who is unsure giving an answer instead of taking time to research is scary. Maybe that's why misdiagnosis is so common:

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=23148

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: Interviewing and Company Culture by fma on Thursday October 06, 2016 @08:49PM (#12657358)
"Despite these statistics, many doctors are reluctant to report diagnostic errors, even anonymously, despite the likelihood of moderate to severe harm on the patient"

Not sure why doctors don't look after their patients. Is it because there is no incentive to? If they do bad diagnosis that means the patient comes back and the doctor gets more money. As long as they don't get sued there's really no harm to the doctor.

As a software engineers we are incentivized to perform well. A crappy system means time spent debugging issues, money lost for our employer. We also take pride in building good systems so we can take that experience to the next company and get s higher wage or position.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: Interviewing and Company Culture by CapitalistCartr on Thursday October 06, 2016 @05:51PM (#12656431)
And yet, in spite of their extensive training, computers are better at diagnosing.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: Interviewing and Company Culture by Cass on Thursday October 06, 2016 @06:46PM (#12656765)
As far as I'm aware, computers are better at diagnosing a very small and very specific subset of diagnoses. If I'm wrong about this and there's a computer out there who can diagnose patients with better or equal accuracy than the average physician, please link me to the study proving so immediately, because I desperately want this in my life, and so do ninety percent of my colleagues. (There's a stubborn subset who wouldn't trust a computer if Asclepius himself descended from the heaven to sing its praises. The rest of us have ten times more work than time and would gladly welcome the help.)

As it is, we can't even seem to find a program that can analyse an ECG better than an overtired and exhausted resident at 4 am, which is really quite a low bar to cross.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: Interviewing and Company Culture by CapitalistCartr on Thursday October 06, 2016 @07:25PM (#12656962)
Yeah, I'd like it, too. But the only one of which I'm aware is IBM's Watson, and that's still wildly impractical.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: Interviewing and Company Culture by bsder on Thursday October 06, 2016 @08:10PM (#12657197)
Computers are better at diagnosing when the problem is very specific or low/counter-probability.

So, let's take heart attack diagnoses in emergency rooms--a fixed procedure laid down by following statistics is WAY better than human judgement.

Generalized abdominal pain--computers aren't so good. There are a lot of possibilities and most of them are about equal. The doctor is more likely to tease out the problem over time through conversational randomness.

Some obscure genetic disease--a computer is going to be FEROCIOUSLY better than a human. A computer can keep all of those .00001% options in mind as tests and diagnoses rule out the far more common problems until the low-probability things pop up into statistical relevance.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: Interviewing and Company Culture by bhrt0 on Thursday October 06, 2016 @05:58PM (#12656483)
You think software for those computers that are better at diagnosing was created by engineers who don't know the difference between a stable and unstable sorting algorithm?
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: Interviewing and Company Culture by donw on Thursday October 06, 2016 @07:18PM (#12656934)
There is a massive delta between knowing that, and being able to code examples of each from memory on a whiteboard during an interview.

Also, it may surprise you, but there are many highly experienced and extremely capable programmers that didn't study computer science in college. Filtering those people out because they can't answer programming trivia questions is, at best, hugely short-sighted.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: Interviewing and Company Culture by chris_7 on Thursday October 06, 2016 @07:37PM (#12657014)
If you're writing diagnosis software, your approach to sorting should be "use sort()". Sorting is not your core competency, diagnosis is.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: Interviewing and Company Culture by kafkaesq on Thursday October 06, 2016 @08:30PM (#12657293)
Actually, yes. It's very likely that the core algorithms for these systems were written by "crossover" types (e.g. math PhDs) who are perfectly capable of getting up to speed with the esoteric aspects of these systems, without having to go back and master the standard undergraduate CS curriculum.

It's called being flexible and able to learn, and it's the single most important thing you're supposed to get out of your formal education.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: Interviewing and Company Culture by bsder on Thursday October 06, 2016 @08:16PM (#12657216)
I have discovered over and over that most genuinely good things are created by one smart person. After that person creates it, then the masses can run with it.

Bittorrent is a great example. All the pieces had existed for a while, but Bram Cohen put them all together into one place. After that, lots of people created other BitTorrent clients. However, without that first, smart person, it wouldn't have appeared.

Re:Ask a Female Engineer: Interviewing and Company Culture by kafkaesq on Thursday October 06, 2016 @08:23PM (#12657255)
Only in certain, highly procedural use cases. But in the large, no.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: Interviewing and Company Culture by EliRivers on Friday October 07, 2016 @05:26AM (#12659253)
In my experience (which is from asking friends who are medical doctors), their medical ability is not examined during the interview. There are no questions of this nature.
Re:Ask a Female Engineer: Interviewing and Company Culture by kafkaesq on Thursday October 06, 2016 @05:42PM (#12656360)
Who said anything about... feeling "hurt"?