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Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by livestockboy on Thursday September 22, 2016 @07:04AM (#12555944)
easy solution is to just heavily tax dairy, livestock and other industries that produce hundreds of billions of bacteria testing grounds (animals) per year at the same time using last-resport antibiotics to spur growth and reap profits.

or give extreme tax benefits to those that don't use antibiotics.

Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by gnashville on Thursday September 22, 2016 @12:35PM (#12558035)
Easy in concept but the beef cartel would fight tooth and nail against something like this.
Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by UweSchmidt on Thursday September 22, 2016 @08:59AM (#12556481)
Or cut down on the meat and dairy consumption?
Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by edc117 on Thursday September 22, 2016 @09:22AM (#12556622)
Tax increase = higher prices = how consumption is cut down. Unfortunately most people won't listen to appeals from the scientific community.
Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by ensignavenger on Thursday September 22, 2016 @09:50AM (#12556777)
Any research you care to share to support your claims?
Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by livestockboy on Thursday September 22, 2016 @10:55AM (#12557205)
https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/4q920m/askscien...

nice AMA from the experts directly.

First answer:

> First, a lot of antibiotic resistance appears to be driven by the agricultural use of antibiotics as growth enhancers. Thus, we can be savvy consumers and support and be willing to absorb the costs of the efforts to get antibiotics out of the meat industry.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=livestock+last-resort+a...

Here's a nice batch of results.

It's a well known problem, not some esoteric trivia. It is also the biggest cause of selective pressure, not antibacterial soaps or human medicine misuse of antibiotics.

Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by ensignavenger on Thursday September 22, 2016 @01:16PM (#12558402)
Cool, thanks! I did some looking into it, and it appears that as of 1 Jan 2017, in the US such uses of medically important antibiotics will be banned in the US (http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/NewsEvents/CVMUpdates/uc...). The EU has had a ban since 2006. China and some other countries may still be a problem. Not sure how much meet the US/EU imports from those countries.

With these bans in place, it doesn't seem necessary to implement a tax on their use. Perhaps a ban on importing meat that was produced using antibiotics for growth.

Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by zdkl on Thursday September 22, 2016 @07:09AM (#12555963)
You think paying more for your food will make bacteria stop reacting to selective pressure? Or do you think we can stop relying on 'organic' food?(in the biochemical sense, not the hippie meaning)

Either way I've got some bad news for you

Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by nebula on Thursday September 22, 2016 @07:18AM (#12556000)
I can understand what he meant: Heavy use of antibiotics in diary and poultry industry is a significant factor contributing to drug resistant bacteria. In other words, these industries are actively providing the selection pressure you referring here.
Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by zdkl on Thursday September 22, 2016 @08:36AM (#12556344)
Well the selection environment is a requirement to not getting sick from eating the products. You can't just have a nice chat with the microbe unions and ask them to behave and stay off the meat...
Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by livestockboy on Thursday September 22, 2016 @09:08AM (#12556530)
> is a requirement to not getting sick from eating the products

one gives antibiotics to one's thousands of chickens to spur growth (body growth - gaining mass), not to protect the consumer from disease.

giving antibiotics to poultry extremely increases mass gains. post-slaughter processes add chemicals that keep meat from rotting, eradicating some of those living harmful bacteria that just so happen to turn flesh into unwanted dark piece of s+=t.

Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by zdkl on Thursday September 22, 2016 @09:35AM (#12556690)
I entirely agree on your opinion of the antibiotic situation regarding large scale farming. The problem is that we could not substitute another method to produce enough food to me(e|a)t demand. If we want to keep eating we must have safe food, and to keep food safe in frankly hostile environments we need to treat it. Until we can do without what passes for modern industrialised food growing and processing, we'll need treatments and colorants so we can pretend this is 'regular' food.
Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by snowwrestler on Thursday September 22, 2016 @11:55AM (#12557745)
Antibiotics are not given to livestock to reduce loss. They are given to increase mass.

Farming without prophylactic antibiotics--where antibiotics are only used to treat sick animals, as they are in humans--could meet the demand for food easily.

Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by mercutio2 on Thursday September 22, 2016 @10:49AM (#12557155)
There is no need to meet the current demand for meat. If meat was our only food source, then perhaps this syllogism you've drawn would be true.

But in reality, meat is an inefficient form of producing food, with complements humans can easily shift to. So the way you get less antibiotic use in livestock in a capitalist decision market is by reducing the demand for livestock. Taxes do a great job at reducing demand.

Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by zdkl on Thursday September 22, 2016 @11:18AM (#12557405)
Maybe my pun about meet/meat confused you but the problem definitely isn't limited to meat production. You should see the quantites of pesticides/fertilisers/treatment agents used in the extensive culture of plants. The question holds, if you don't intend to back current production levels that are only possible through over intensive exploitation to the detriment of the product and it's growing medium, what alternatives are there to meet current demand for food in general?
Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by livestockboy on Thursday September 22, 2016 @11:28AM (#12557509)
Use of pesticides in plant agriculture is mostly driven by huge demand of meat/dairy industry for feed. GMOs also aren't exactly necessary if you don't have 90 billion mouths to feed every day.

There are some vegetables that are easily grown in unsuitable areas with GM, and some people do use pesticides and GMOs to "defeat" the market but if international logistics weren't so hard it would be easier to just import the stuff.

Similar industry, completely plant driven, is cotton agriculture for clothes - to ensure proper demand you need GMO or pesticides.

When it comes to beans, lentils, soybean for humans (although most of it is for fish farms, poultry and livestock), wheat, corn, rice, all sorts of fruits, pesticides come in hand, but there's more than enough if space was taken from dairy/meat and given to those.

91% of Amazon is cut for animal agriculture. http://www-wds.worldbank.org/servlet/WDSContentServer/WDSP/I...

It's just 7 billion people, while you have to raise 50 billion chickens, 1 billion cows, -- about 150 billion animals yearly just to get them from baby form to somewhat of an adult form. That requires a lot of food, way more than 7 billion avg. 150 pound humans.

https://xkcd.com/1338/

edit: realistically, this problem is unsolvable, just like US and China and others won't really struggle lowering their CO2 footprint, so will not Brazil, USA, India, Australia, Denmark and others when it comes to reduction of their meat/dairy output. If we were some nice unified Humanity maybe things would be different.

Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by pmoriarty on Thursday September 22, 2016 @12:46PM (#12558143)
I would not be so pessimistic. Lots of things that many people thought certain would never happen or would take a very long time have happened in relatively short order.

Things like the fall of the Soviet Union, desegregation in the US, man on the moon, etc. Even things that required great international cooperation have happened. Like the eradication of smallpox and polio, the creation of the United Nations, etc.

But the reduction of meat consumption and reliance on factory farming need not be done on a global level to be worthwhile. It can happen one country at a time. Even one person or one animal at a time will be helpful, even if it won't solve everything. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by hx87 on Thursday September 22, 2016 @02:41PM (#12559091)
We could meet food demand with quite a bit less production if we ate lower on the food chain, improved transportation infrastructure and reduced waste. People don't go hungry because farmers don't produce enough food, not today; people go hungry because some people don't get enough allocation of resources and/or transportation infrastructure is crappy.
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Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by zdkl on Thursday September 22, 2016 @11:22AM (#12557444)
I spy with my little eye someone who'd die early, in a world without antibiotics. Some contaminations can't be washed or cooked away (Staphylococcus aureus, some Clostridiums...). And there are a lot of ways to mess up and contaminate an otherwise perfectly fine sample.
Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by snowwrestler on Thursday September 22, 2016 @11:57AM (#12557760)
You continue to post as though the only reason antibiotics are given to animals is to keep human customers safe. It's not.

> I spy with my little eye someone who'd die early, in a world without antibiotics.

This is a joke, right? People ate meat safely for thousands of years before antibiotics were invented.

Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by hx87 on Thursday September 22, 2016 @02:44PM (#12559124)
If the animal is sick enough to make you sick when you eat it, it would have died long before it reached the slaughterhouse. What you'd see without agricultural prophylactic antibiotics, at worst, would be occasional mass die-offs and spikes in meat prices. So instead of chicken always being $5/lb, it would be $5/lb most of the time and $50/lb when the die-offs happen.
Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by arethuza on Thursday September 22, 2016 @07:17AM (#12555992)
If the choice is cheap meat or antibiotics (and yes I know it's not quite that simple) then I'll take antibiotics.
Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by zdkl on Thursday September 22, 2016 @08:35AM (#12556336)
The cheap option is antibiotics, that's why we have this problem in hte first place! If you want the best of both worlds (limiting bacteria proliferation AND antibiotic use) the current methods for providing food at scale are impractical for many cost-related reasons.
Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by hx87 on Thursday September 22, 2016 @02:45PM (#12559133)
I thought the choice was between expensive meat or antibiotics, or between cheap meat and /no/ antibiotics?
Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by forgetsusername on Thursday September 22, 2016 @07:25AM (#12556023)
>If the choice is cheap meat or antibiotics

Easy to say when you're wealthy, no so much when you consider yourself healthy but poor.

Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by SolaceQuantum on Thursday September 22, 2016 @08:11AM (#12556235)
If meat is expensive you can go on to a largely vegetable and plant based diet. Meat is already more expensive than tofu and beans and lentils. And thanks to the Internet, it's now easy to pick up recipes and change ones diet with food from multiple cultures that don't use extensive amounts of meat.
Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by sten on Thursday September 22, 2016 @07:47AM (#12556132)
Meat is a luxury.
Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by sageabilly on Thursday September 22, 2016 @09:33AM (#12556679)
Yup. I am an avid meat eater, love BBQ, all of the food I cook has meat in it- but I am absolutely aware that it is a luxury. I do my absolute best to buy higher quality meat as close to pasture raised as I can get... but I don't make that final leap to source out local farmers and buy directly from them to ensure that I know exactly how the meat I'm eating is raised.

But at the end of the day, not everyone can afford organic pasture raised eggs at $7/dozen. And the problem is that we've all gotten so used to eggs at $0.50/dozen or chicken at $1/pound that I don't think society as a whole could deal with the cost of meat equalizing to reflect the true cost of non-factory farmed production.

Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by hx87 on Thursday September 22, 2016 @02:46PM (#12559144)
> I don't think society as a whole could deal with the cost of meat

We certainly could if we had to, but so far we haven't had to.

Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by hx87 on Thursday September 22, 2016 @02:47PM (#12559155)
When I was poor, I didn't eat meat. If I am ever poor again I would go vegetarian. Cheap meat just isn't worth it.
Re:The Age of the Superbug Is Here by restalis on Thursday September 22, 2016 @07:31AM (#12556052)
I think limiting the means for gaining resistance should have been considered more seriously. For now, things are taken seriously only "when the shit hits the fan" and that in itself is a weakness that seemingly still affects us as species despite the numerous lessons that should have taught us the importance of prevention.