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Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by felixgallo on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @11:22AM (#12390952)
Unfortunately there is no way to justify a unicorn valuation if all that you have as an asset is an open source file format.

Consider Vagrant -- like Docker, it's essentially a wrapper around other people's facilities and libraries. Mitchell and co appear to be trying to escape the trap by moving into nearby areas of real value, but there's no meaningful way to monetize Vagrant no matter how popular it is.

Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by kordless on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @11:35AM (#12391064)
> Unfortunately there is no way to justify a unicorn valuation

Then it is indeed unfortunate that Docker is building infrastructure code which is tainted by the game theory surrounding the need for a unicorn valuation. Maybe that's the problem, instead of Docker itself.

Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by sjellis on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @12:26PM (#12391523)
That is exactly the problem. Linux containerisation is done by building tooling that uses kernel-level features. You don't need a start-up with millions in VC funding to implement the basic feature-set. At the other end of the complexity scale, both flatpak and systemd-nspawn are more specialist containerisation tools, which are each largely the product of just one person.
Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by cookiecaper on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @05:30PM (#12394076)
Docker itself is part of that problem, not separate to it. They willingly accepted almost $200 million in venture capital. We all know what the VC game is. If they can't turn that $200M into a $5B+ exit, they lost.
Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by dragonwriter on Wednesday August 31, 2016 @05:29PM (#12401645)
> If they can't turn that $200M into a $5B+ exit, they lost.

Well, the VCs lost. Presumably, the people at Docker -- including the people who would do fantastically well with an exit that also made VCs happy -- are drawing paychecks, in some cases substantial ones, and will have in many cases done tolerably well (rather than have "lost") if no VC-friendly exit ever occurs.

Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by djsumdog on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @01:50PM (#12392248)
Do you remember when open source meant people just working on stuff for fun and trying to provide free as in speech alternatives to pay crap?

I feel like this is just another step into the corporate OSS world which is a far departure of what a lot of the original OSS architects envisioned.

Trying to monetize OSS often leads to rushed features and bad decisions like in most traditional non-OSS/enterprise products. If you strip off the polish and the fancy website, you should still have a usable, well documented thing that people need. That may also be a product you can sell support for or host, but it doesn't have to be.

Unfortunately, there aren't as many grants and not as much developer free time to go around anymore.

Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by bluejekyll on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @02:33PM (#12392657)
I'm not sure OSS ever meant that:

Many people believe that the spirit of the GNU Project is that you should not charge money for distributing copies of software, or that you should charge as little as possible—just enough to cover the cost. This is a misunderstanding.

Actually, we encourage people who redistribute free software to charge as much as they wish or can. If a license does not permit users to make copies and sell them, it is a nonfree license. If this seems surprising to you, please read on.

from:

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.en.html

Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by dragonwriter on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @02:43PM (#12392736)
> Actually, we encourage people who redistribute free software to charge as much as they wish or can.

What they don't mention is that, when every recipient of the software is free to redistribute it and compete against you, as much as you can rapidly becomes zero (or, at most, just enough to cover the cost of the most-efficient distributor), since free competition drives prices down to the marginal production cost.

Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by cyphar on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @05:56PM (#12394271)
Except of course, that the business model of free software is generally support-license based. Yes, someone can take your software and provide support instead of you but they usually are not as experienced as you with what you created. If they are, you should hire them.

Companies make money charging for free software all the time, and I really wish we would stop having to go through this discussion every time that free software shows up as a point. Companies have been making money from free software for more than 20-30 years at this point, and none of it required taking away the freedom of their end-users.

Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by dragonwriter on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @06:18PM (#12394420)
> Except of course, that the business model of free software is generally support-license based

Its charging for support (not support-license since the support contract isn't a license when the software is actually delivered on a Free license) because that's an alternative to charging for software, because, practically, you can't charge for Free software, for the reason discussed in GP.

> Companies make money charging for free software all the time

No, they don't. They often make money charging for ancillary services related to Free software, which their involvement in contributing to the Free software may have positioned them to provide at an advantage to competitors, but not many make money charging for Free software.

Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by cyphar on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @07:02PM (#12394669)
> Its charging for support (not support-license since the support contract isn't a license when the software is actually delivered on a Free license) because that's an alternative to charging for software, because, practically, you can't charge for Free software, for the reason discussed in GP.

The industry calls them support licenses (since generally you only support X machines running your software -- though of course you can have alternative models), so that's what I'm going to call them.

As for not being able to charge for Free Software, it is true that unless you have some value-add (preinstalling or burning to physical media) then yes, youre going to have trouble selling the bits that make up a piece of software. But then again, why does is that model taken as being the "right model" with the free software model being the "alternative". In fact, many proprietary companies have the same model (Oracle will charge you for support too). How is it a better model that you buy a set of bits and that's all you get (no promise of updates, no support if something breaks, nothing other than the 1s and 0s that make up version X.Y of the binaries you built). In fact, I'm having trouble of thinking what companies have such a model, because it's so user-hostile (even for proprietary so software).

Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by molecule on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @03:52PM (#12393308)
OSS is a corporate-friendly fork of Free Software like GNU

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point....

Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by user5994461 on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @02:40PM (#12392720)
> Do you remember when open source meant people just working on stuff for fun and trying to provide free as in speech alternatives to pay crap?

OSS is a path bound to failure.

On the one hand, going OSS means the project will never have the resources because it ain't charging money. On the other hand, it will never be able to charge money because people don't want to pay for something that's advertised as free. That's a vicious circle.

The average non-crap software is taking astronomical effort to make and it's getting harder and more complex over time. A bunch of guys working for free in their spare time just don't have the resources to keep up.

P.S. When in doubt, remember that the difference between the great pyramid of Kheops and Microsoft Windows, is that Windows took more effort to make.

Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by cyphar on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @05:58PM (#12394284)
> because it ain't charging money.

Free software refers to freedom, not price[1]. Companies have been making money selling free software for more than 20-30 years at this point (even free software that is developed in the open).

[1]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by user5994461 on Saturday September 03, 2016 @06:41AM (#12418673)
> Free software refers to freedom,

Philosophically speaking, maybe. In practise though, free software are considered because of pricing and not freeness.

Bring a PAID open-source software for a comparison in front of your directors and/or fellow engineers. I did that many times, from $1000/year to $3M/year subscription.

Even the most open-source aficionados will quickly reveal that he doesn't care about open-source. All he thinks about is pricing.

Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by cyphar on Saturday September 03, 2016 @08:55AM (#12419012)
I gladly pay for free software, and donate to several groups of developers developing free software. Maybe I'm in the minority, but at least I stick to my principles -- free software for me is about freedom (I contribute to many projects that I use every day, which I wouldn't be able to do without free software). Price is irrelevant.

In addition, I work for a free software company -- everything I work on is done in the open and all of our customers have freedom when they use our software. So I really do practice what I preach, and encourage others to follow suit.

Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by cyphar on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @05:53PM (#12394249)
> open source meant people just working on stuff for fun and trying to provide free as in speech alternatives to pay crap?

You're mixing quite a few things. "Open source" never meant that, and was always geared towards corporations. Free software does mean providing "free as in speech" alternatives to things, but it never meant stopping people from charging users (you having to "pay crap").

Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by wstrange on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @11:43AM (#12391147)
I wonder if the Docker Hub could be their monetization vehicle. They become the "github" of the container world.

It may not justify the valuation they want.. which is another issue.

Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by cyphar on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @12:00PM (#12391287)
I believe that their business model is providing a proprietary fork of the Docker engine (along with a bunch of other proprietary tooling) to enterprises as well as support for it. I won't lie, it really bothers me that code I've helped write is being used in proprietary software.
Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by pavlov on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @12:18PM (#12391451)
Then don't contribute to projects whose license you don't agree with?
Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by cyphar on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @05:38PM (#12394142)
Personally I make all of the projects I make GPLv3-or-later. However, certain projects are of signficiant importance to the free software community that I consider the benefits to free software to outweigh the potential drawbacks by proprietary forks. Unfortunately, it still makes me feel unhappy about people taking my work and forking it under a proprietary license.
Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by majewsky on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @02:22PM (#12392552)
> I won't lie, it really bothers me that code I've helped write is being used in proprietary software.

Then you better don't contribute to anything that's not exactly GPL.

Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by cyphar on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @05:50PM (#12394226)
Or AGPL. This is a fair point, and I make all of the code I write GPL. Unfortunately, there is only one containerisation project that is under the GPL and only the core of it is under the GPL (LXC is [L]GPL but LXD is not). It's quite worrying that so few Golang projects (because for some reason every containerisation project is written in Golang seemingly in anger) are under the GPL.
Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by cookiecaper on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @05:32PM (#12394097)
Make it AGPL. The GPL can be circumvented by slapping an HTTP interface on the logic, which is how Google has gotten away with keeping so much private.
Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by djsumdog on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @01:51PM (#12392258)
I've written about this before:

http://penguindreams.org/blog/the-philosophy-of-open-source-...

TL;DR is that we have a lot of corporate open source now for infrastructure, but the golden age OSS end products people hoped for in the 90's/00's never really happened.

Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by cyphar on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @05:42PM (#12394168)
Note: "Open Source" does not have a philosophy[1]. The free software movement does (it has a philosophy based on software freedom), but the "open source" movement does not discuss any of the ethical reasons why users should have freedom (it only discusses practical issues). Personally I think that the "open source" split is one of the reasons that the state of free software is so worrying today.

[1]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point....

Re:Talk of a Split from Docker by hosh on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @12:08PM (#12391355)
That's a great point. The thing is, I don't see them as getting serious about it. For example, quay.io provides better functionality around registry. Docker Hub is "good enough" and gets traction from the sheer fact that Docker runs it.