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Re:'Single currency experiment has been a disaster' admits e... by sevenless on Saturday August 27, 2016 @10:45AM (#12372553)
The EU is 'undemocratic' - as opposed to Britain's unelected Prime Minister, Queen and House of Lords, of course.

A more serious response is that democracy can only be justified by its outcomes, and isn't a good thing in itself. A racist democracy that votes to harm minorities is worse than a dictatorship that upholds human rights and prevents the majority harming the rest. With the rise of explicitly anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim parties in Europe, this is not a theoretical consideration.

Re:'Single currency experiment has been a disaster' admits e... by anexprogrammer on Saturday August 27, 2016 @11:10AM (#12372657)
I imagine I'll be thoroughly downvoted, but I like the unelected House of Lords. There's a heck of a lot wrong with it - not least the ease of pushing ex party members up there in vast numbers, but all alternatives thus far proposed are far worse.

All proposed alternatives will give us more elected politicians adhering to party lines. None of the alternatives will give us better government.

Lords are pretty good at being difficult in the face of bad legislation - yet every time a notable instance takes place there are more calls to abolish the place. Their party allegiance mellows as they age - so you get Tory peers ridiculing some aspect of the current Tory government. Last there are enough independents (usually with long non-political careers) to bring domain knowledge and independent thought to the place.

Most instances of Lords reform have been as a result of them doing their job well, inconveniencing or embarrassing the elected government of the day.

It's not democratic, but it works.

Re:'Single currency experiment has been a disaster' admits e... by kps on Saturday August 27, 2016 @11:43AM (#12372800)
The current role of the House of Lords (like the Canadian Senate) is to introduce hysteresis into Parliament. It's a smoothing function over the last n elections to limit damage from noisy inputs.
Re:'Single currency experiment has been a disaster' admits e... by spoonie on Saturday August 27, 2016 @11:34AM (#12372761)
I mostly like it too, it's a similar model to Canada Senate. Who needs to go are the current hereditary peers: they weren't elected or even appointed by someone elected. At least they abolished the hereditary system.
Re:'Single currency experiment has been a disaster' admits e... by Wildgoose on Saturday August 27, 2016 @11:15AM (#12372688)
(1) Britain's Prime Minister is the elected MP for the Maidenhead constituency in Berkshire. (2) The Queen is the Head of State but does not control our Democracy - she doesn't even have a vote. (3) The House of Lords is actually a revising Chamber, but in this last case I am largely in agreement with you with regards to its democratic credentials.

The EU on the other hand has a so-called "Parliament" which cannot propose legislation, cannot amend legislation and cannot repeal legislation. It has neither "Government" nor "Opposition", being essentially a rubber-stamping body for the unelected EU Commission.

You seem to prefer this to the idea of allowing people a democratic choice simply because a minority of those people are voting for parties of whom you do not approve.

However what happens when that unelected group (which is lacking in democratic restraints) starts to act in ways even more harmful than its current actions?

You might not like Democracy, but at least it allows the possibility of correcting its mistakes.

Re:'Single currency experiment has been a disaster' admits e... by anon1385 on Saturday August 27, 2016 @11:40AM (#12372793)
>(1) Britain's Prime Minister is the elected MP for the Maidenhead constituency in Berkshire.

It's worth pointing out that most of the people saying this about May are having a bit of fun. The Torys and right wing papers made a huge deal out of Gordon Brown being "unelected", but for some reason are silent when the same situation arrises with a Tory PM.

>(2) The Queen is the Head of State but does not control our Democracy - she doesn't even have a vote

She does have the power to veto laws though, and she has done so[1].

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jan/14/secret-papers-roy...

Re:'Single currency experiment has been a disaster' admits e... by toyg on Saturday August 27, 2016 @01:27PM (#12373265)
> Britain's Prime Minister is the elected MP for the Maidenhead constituency

Britain's PM is technically a Royal appointment, nobody ever gets "elected to be PM". By convention, the party leader winning at the last election is nominated, hence bringing some democratic legitimacy to the role. However, whenever someone else gets the job in unorthodox ways, like May or Brown did through changing equilibria in their parties, such legitimacy is clearly lacking. The only way we have to express that situation is by saying that the current PM is "unelected", and the PM is supposed to rectify this state by calling for a general election where he or she will obtain popular legitimacy.

Anyone following UK politics for more than 10 minutes knows perfectly well how this works, and trying to fight the definition through pedantry is, by itself, a partisan statement.

> The EU on the other hand has a so-called "Parliament" which cannot propose legislation

But it can veto it, blocking anything they want.

> cannot amend legislation

In practice it does, through the various committees "helping" the Commission.

> cannot repeal legislation

That is a problem, but it's not terrible in itself; a Parliament who'd want a certain directive dropped would express a popular will that the Council would likely share; which in turn would make the Commission prepare a superseding directive.

> It has neither "Government" nor "Opposition"

In practice it does. The Commission President is the candidate of the party winning the largest amount of seats, and the Parliament President is the candidate of the runner-up party. The most popular party will naturally be in government in most countries, hence dictating the agenda in Commission and Council. The Parliament can try blocking legislation, much like a national opposition would do.

> being essentially a rubber-stamping body

That's unfair. Directives can change quite dramatically when going through committees; in some cases, the final result is almost the opposite of what was first introduced, to the horror of commissioners who then drop them. The stats about votes don't reflect the fact that, since veto powers were introduced in 2009, directives without Parliament support simply don't come up for a vote, because every vote against the Commission weakens it. Much like a government would do...

> the unelected EU Commission.

The Commission President is an elected MEP who is nominated as candidate by the party before the election; and the Commissioners are nominated by elected governments through the Council.

> what happens when that unelected group [...] starts to act in ways even more harmful

You leave. Any member state can leave at any time by triggering the famous art. 50. The EU has no army to stop you from doing that.

Of course, if your own national elites don't really want to do it, that's a problem; but that's a problem with your national elite, not with "European tyrants".

Re:'Single currency experiment has been a disaster' admits e... by zigzigzag on Saturday August 27, 2016 @04:02PM (#12373921)
As you point out - the EU Parliament has so little power that if it ever amends a law in a way the Commission doesn't like, the whole thing is scrapped so they can try again.

Article 50 isn't a serious thing. The guy who wrote it admitted he assumed it'd never be used and he didn't put any thought into it, as it was only put in there to shut up the Brits. The EU has never seriously considered the possibility any country would actually leave and the constitutional possibility of doing so was only added recently, in a half-arsed way.

Re:'Single currency experiment has been a disaster' admits e... by toyg on Saturday August 27, 2016 @05:37PM (#12374300)
> the EU Parliament has so little power that [...] the whole thing is scrapped so they can try again.

Parliament gets exactly what it wants, or no one gets anything. That's an awesome power in my book!

> Article 50 isn't a serious thing.

Well it's on the books, it's law, so it's as serious as they come. Should Brexit ever come to pass, it will be thanks to that article. As an euroskeptic, you should love it!

> The guy who wrote it [...] didn't put any thought into it

That's a feature shared by a lot of laws at all levels, I'm afraid. They are still laws. We don't pick and choose what we obey depending on our opinion of whether the legislator put in enough effort. When laws are unclear or badly written, there are ways to correct them. There is even a procedure to correct that article, it just requires agreement with the other member countries. But tbh, if you want to leave sooner than what art.50 states, I don't think anyone will stop you -- indeed nobody can, because, again, no army.

> The EU has never seriously considered the possibility any country would actually leave

It wouldn't matter anyway, because "the EU" is all about consensus among member states, which really are the ones dictating the agenda at all times. Without army or police, there is nothing stopping countries to leave at any moment. Despite that, 27 countries are still in there and more are applying, so "the EU" must be doing something right -- unless you believe in lizard people or "mass brainwashing"...

Re:'Single currency experiment has been a disaster' admits e... by blue1 on Sunday August 28, 2016 @09:56AM (#12376510)
> Article 50 isn't a serious thing. The guy who wrote it admitted he assumed it'd never be used and he didn't put any thought into it

"The guy" is Giuliano Amato, former PM of Italy. If you care to read the interview he gave on this topic, he never said he did not put any thought into it. Just that it was designed to be a difficult procedure.